1
00:00:08,390 --> 00:00:06,550
[Music]

2
00:00:11,190 --> 00:00:08,400
welcome to the skeptic zone

3
00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:11,200
the podcast from australia for science

4
00:00:23,349 --> 00:00:16,850
and reason

5
00:00:25,349 --> 00:00:23,359
[Music]

6
00:00:28,470 --> 00:00:25,359
yes it's the skeptic zone podcast

7
00:00:29,429 --> 00:00:28,480
episode number 635 for the 13th of

8
00:00:31,669 --> 00:00:29,439
december

9
00:00:33,990 --> 00:00:31,679
2020 richard saunders coming to you from

10
00:00:36,630 --> 00:00:34,000
sydney australia where i'm up early

11
00:00:37,270 --> 00:00:36,640
what time is it it's just after 4 a.m i

12
00:00:39,670 --> 00:00:37,280
thought

13
00:00:40,470 --> 00:00:39,680
if i get up really early if i go very

14
00:00:43,590 --> 00:00:40,480
early

15
00:00:46,150 --> 00:00:43,600
i can beat the noise the birds

16
00:00:46,790 --> 00:00:46,160
which seem to have invaded sydney

17
00:00:49,990 --> 00:00:46,800
recently

18
00:00:53,110 --> 00:00:50,000
the cockatoos the rainbow lorikeets

19
00:00:53,910 --> 00:00:53,120
and such like the trucks the heavy

20
00:00:56,830 --> 00:00:53,920
trucks that

21
00:00:58,069 --> 00:00:56,840
zoom up and down the street near here

22
00:01:00,389 --> 00:00:58,079
occasionally

23
00:01:01,349 --> 00:01:00,399
the aircraft which are increasing i'm

24
00:01:03,830 --> 00:01:01,359
pleased to say

25
00:01:05,910 --> 00:01:03,840
i must say that uh that's the fact i am

26
00:01:08,149 --> 00:01:05,920
pleased to say there are more aircraft

27
00:01:09,750 --> 00:01:08,159
now since the borders have opened within

28
00:01:12,870 --> 00:01:09,760
australia

29
00:01:13,990 --> 00:01:12,880
so 4am yeah that would do it that would

30
00:01:15,109 --> 00:01:14,000
do the trick

31
00:01:18,630 --> 00:01:15,119
of course i didn't take into

32
00:01:21,830 --> 00:01:18,640
consideration the flying foxes

33
00:01:25,590 --> 00:01:21,840
or the the bats yeah

34
00:01:27,990 --> 00:01:25,600
they have a certain odd noise they make

35
00:01:31,510 --> 00:01:28,000
in the trees not far from here

36
00:01:33,590 --> 00:01:31,520
but i think maybe they've just uh

37
00:01:35,749 --> 00:01:33,600
maybe they've gone back to sleep anyway

38
00:01:38,550 --> 00:01:35,759
one day i'll buy that uh

39
00:01:40,390 --> 00:01:38,560
soundproof studio with the rubber walls

40
00:01:43,510 --> 00:01:40,400
coming up on this week's show

41
00:01:45,510 --> 00:01:43,520
our friend ken mccloud well an article

42
00:01:46,950 --> 00:01:45,520
he's written for the skeptic magazine

43
00:01:49,270 --> 00:01:46,960
that's just come out

44
00:01:50,389 --> 00:01:49,280
the journal from australian skeptics

45
00:01:55,030 --> 00:01:50,399
about

46
00:01:58,469 --> 00:01:55,040
judy wileyman phd

47
00:02:00,789 --> 00:01:58,479
and in ken's opinion the phd that was

48
00:02:02,630 --> 00:02:00,799
awarded to her

49
00:02:04,230 --> 00:02:02,640
certainly deserves a complaint of

50
00:02:06,230 --> 00:02:04,240
academic misconduct

51
00:02:07,670 --> 00:02:06,240
and maybe after hearing his report you

52
00:02:09,669 --> 00:02:07,680
may well agree

53
00:02:10,710 --> 00:02:09,679
that's coming up at the top of the show

54
00:02:13,750 --> 00:02:10,720
where i

55
00:02:14,070 --> 00:02:13,760
read his report from the magazine and

56
00:02:20,949 --> 00:02:14,080
that

57
00:02:22,309 --> 00:02:20,959
is free at skeptics.com.edu it's like a

58
00:02:25,910 --> 00:02:22,319
sample from the latest

59
00:02:28,150 --> 00:02:25,920
magazine following that it's

60
00:02:30,229 --> 00:02:28,160
a trip back into trove a dive into the

61
00:02:31,910 --> 00:02:30,239
trove the treasure trove of online

62
00:02:34,630 --> 00:02:31,920
resources from the australian government

63
00:02:37,509 --> 00:02:34,640
and the national library of australia

64
00:02:39,110 --> 00:02:37,519
and we continue our thread from last

65
00:02:41,990 --> 00:02:39,120
week of water divining

66
00:02:44,309 --> 00:02:42,000
this week we go to the year 1945 for a

67
00:02:47,509 --> 00:02:44,319
fascinating series of

68
00:02:49,030 --> 00:02:47,519
letters to the editor from skeptics and

69
00:02:52,470 --> 00:02:49,040
believers

70
00:02:55,270 --> 00:02:52,480
and indeed i found even more interesting

71
00:02:58,710 --> 00:02:55,280
skeptics and believers from

72
00:02:59,670 --> 00:02:58,720
way back in 1912 1913 which will be

73
00:03:04,470 --> 00:02:59,680
coming up

74
00:03:06,550 --> 00:03:04,480
in future episodes but today it's 1945.

75
00:03:07,670 --> 00:03:06,560
a quick introduction to the show this

76
00:03:10,070 --> 00:03:07,680
week don't forget to

77
00:03:12,630 --> 00:03:10,080
keep listening at the end of the show

78
00:03:14,869 --> 00:03:12,640
for more announcements from me

79
00:03:17,350 --> 00:03:14,879
and some very interesting news in the

80
00:03:19,750 --> 00:03:17,360
world of cryptography

81
00:03:21,670 --> 00:03:19,760
just released yesterday but now it's

82
00:03:25,110 --> 00:03:21,680
time for me to run downstairs

83
00:03:27,190 --> 00:03:25,120
head for the kitchen and i might

84
00:03:28,789 --> 00:03:27,200
not do anything except make a coffee

85
00:03:30,949 --> 00:03:28,799
because it's four o'clock in the morning

86
00:03:33,430 --> 00:03:30,959
but later on

87
00:03:34,710 --> 00:03:33,440
later on i've been inspired recently

88
00:03:38,149 --> 00:03:34,720
i've been watching

89
00:03:40,070 --> 00:03:38,159
some cooking shows on tv and

90
00:03:41,990 --> 00:03:40,080
i discovered a really fun way to watch a

91
00:03:44,710 --> 00:03:42,000
cooking show if you

92
00:03:46,869 --> 00:03:44,720
and a friend maybe you haven't seen for

93
00:03:50,710 --> 00:03:46,879
a long time

94
00:03:53,429 --> 00:03:50,720
um hook up with the phone or

95
00:03:54,630 --> 00:03:53,439
online you know video or just you can

96
00:03:57,990 --> 00:03:54,640
hear each other

97
00:04:00,550 --> 00:03:58,000
and you more or less press play at the

98
00:04:02,949 --> 00:04:00,560
same time watching your various devices

99
00:04:05,190 --> 00:04:02,959
or tv or streaming services

100
00:04:06,869 --> 00:04:05,200
you can watch the same show at the same

101
00:04:09,030 --> 00:04:06,879
time and simply comment about it and

102
00:04:11,509 --> 00:04:09,040
laugh and talk to each other

103
00:04:13,030 --> 00:04:11,519
and that's a lot of fun i really enjoy

104
00:04:14,869 --> 00:04:13,040
that

105
00:04:16,150 --> 00:04:14,879
and it's inspired me to try some new

106
00:04:20,229 --> 00:04:16,160
cooking

107
00:04:22,710 --> 00:04:20,239
why not some lovely uh soup dishes and

108
00:04:24,070 --> 00:04:22,720
things like that no actually i am gonna

109
00:04:25,510 --> 00:04:24,080
run down the stairs and get that coffee

110
00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:25,520
i hope you enjoy

111
00:04:47,350 --> 00:04:45,590
[Music]

112
00:04:49,110 --> 00:04:47,360
from the skeptic magazine the journal

113
00:04:52,150 --> 00:04:49,120
from australian skeptics

114
00:04:55,749 --> 00:04:52,160
december 2020 issue

115
00:04:57,110 --> 00:04:55,759
and that's volume 40 number four on page

116
00:05:00,390 --> 00:04:57,120
37

117
00:05:00,830 --> 00:05:00,400
doctor at large ken mcleod reports on

118
00:05:03,350 --> 00:05:00,840
how

119
00:05:05,350 --> 00:05:03,360
anti-vaccination campaigner judy

120
00:05:08,070 --> 00:05:05,360
wileyman is trading on her

121
00:05:08,870 --> 00:05:08,080
flawed doctorate and the implications

122
00:05:11,670 --> 00:05:08,880
for her

123
00:05:12,330 --> 00:05:11,680
the university of wollongong and the

124
00:05:16,469 --> 00:05:12,340
community

125
00:05:20,230 --> 00:05:16,479
[Music]

126
00:05:22,150 --> 00:05:20,240
when the university of wollongong uow

127
00:05:24,310 --> 00:05:22,160
issued a doctorate in 2016 to

128
00:05:26,950 --> 00:05:24,320
anti-vaxxer judy wileyman

129
00:05:29,189 --> 00:05:26,960
concern and outrage was expressed by the

130
00:05:32,150 --> 00:05:29,199
scientific and medical communities

131
00:05:35,510 --> 00:05:32,160
and others who pointed out the multiple

132
00:05:38,550 --> 00:05:35,520
errors and misrepresentations in her phd

133
00:05:40,950 --> 00:05:38,560
thesis in quote a

134
00:05:42,629 --> 00:05:40,960
critical analysis of the australian

135
00:05:46,070 --> 00:05:42,639
government's rationale

136
00:05:49,350 --> 00:05:46,080
for its vaccination policy end quote

137
00:05:52,070 --> 00:05:49,360
wileyman described what she calls quote

138
00:05:53,430 --> 00:05:52,080
the political framework in which policy

139
00:05:57,510 --> 00:05:53,440
is affected by

140
00:06:01,029 --> 00:05:57,520
biased science or undone underfunded

141
00:06:03,510 --> 00:06:01,039
science end quote and claims

142
00:06:04,469 --> 00:06:03,520
quote the existence of institutional

143
00:06:06,950 --> 00:06:04,479
barriers to

144
00:06:09,670 --> 00:06:06,960
carrying out independent research

145
00:06:13,029 --> 00:06:09,680
including on topics unwelcome to groups

146
00:06:15,590 --> 00:06:13,039
with vested interests end quote she

147
00:06:16,950 --> 00:06:15,600
alleged collusion between industry and

148
00:06:19,189 --> 00:06:16,960
health authorities

149
00:06:20,629 --> 00:06:19,199
particularly that the world health

150
00:06:23,350 --> 00:06:20,639
organization

151
00:06:25,189 --> 00:06:23,360
quote is perceived to be out of touch

152
00:06:28,070 --> 00:06:25,199
with global communities

153
00:06:29,430 --> 00:06:28,080
and is controlled by the interests of

154
00:06:32,550 --> 00:06:29,440
corporations

155
00:06:34,629 --> 00:06:32,560
and the world bank end quote wileyman

156
00:06:36,629 --> 00:06:34,639
did her thesis within the university

157
00:06:39,510 --> 00:06:36,639
school of humanities

158
00:06:41,749 --> 00:06:39,520
and social inquiry whose name was

159
00:06:43,909 --> 00:06:41,759
changed in 2014 from the

160
00:06:45,670 --> 00:06:43,919
school of social science media and

161
00:06:48,230 --> 00:06:45,680
communications

162
00:06:50,550 --> 00:06:48,240
it was this location which led

163
00:06:54,070 --> 00:06:50,560
commentators to refer to it as

164
00:06:55,189 --> 00:06:54,080
an arts degree rather than a science

165
00:06:57,749 --> 00:06:55,199
degree

166
00:06:59,110 --> 00:06:57,759
something which wileyman has taken

167
00:07:01,670 --> 00:06:59,120
exception to

168
00:07:03,830 --> 00:07:01,680
in an attempt to redefine herself as a

169
00:07:06,790 --> 00:07:03,840
science researcher

170
00:07:09,110 --> 00:07:06,800
the thesis was supervised by professor

171
00:07:11,430 --> 00:07:09,120
brian martin

172
00:07:12,710 --> 00:07:11,440
the awarding of the doctorate raised the

173
00:07:15,029 --> 00:07:12,720
serious issue

174
00:07:16,150 --> 00:07:15,039
of the responsibility of the university

175
00:07:19,430 --> 00:07:16,160
of wollongong

176
00:07:23,029 --> 00:07:19,440
to ensure that doctoral theses meet

177
00:07:25,909 --> 00:07:23,039
rigorous scientific standards wileyman's

178
00:07:27,270 --> 00:07:25,919
thesis has been widely criticized by

179
00:07:29,749 --> 00:07:27,280
qualified experts

180
00:07:31,510 --> 00:07:29,759
for not meeting those standards the

181
00:07:31,909 --> 00:07:31,520
university of wollongong has battered

182
00:07:35,350 --> 00:07:31,919
away

183
00:07:38,950 --> 00:07:35,360
those criticisms and should respond

184
00:07:41,270 --> 00:07:38,960
promptly wyliman martin and the

185
00:07:44,790 --> 00:07:41,280
university were awarded the australian

186
00:07:46,869 --> 00:07:44,800
skeptics bent spoon award in 2016.

187
00:07:49,589 --> 00:07:46,879
wiley men's thesis contains many flawed

188
00:07:53,790 --> 00:07:49,599
inclusions too many to list here in full

189
00:07:56,230 --> 00:07:53,800
although details can be found at

190
00:08:00,629 --> 00:07:56,240
tinyurl.com

191
00:08:04,230 --> 00:08:00,639
y lehman phd but just as a sample

192
00:08:05,990 --> 00:08:04,240
page 105. quote smallpox is only

193
00:08:08,950 --> 00:08:06,000
transferable by direct skin

194
00:08:09,909 --> 00:08:08,960
to skin contact end quote this is

195
00:08:12,309 --> 00:08:09,919
demonstrably

196
00:08:14,710 --> 00:08:12,319
false many indigenous americans were

197
00:08:17,510 --> 00:08:14,720
killed by smallpox spread to them

198
00:08:19,350 --> 00:08:17,520
via contaminated blankets the u.s

199
00:08:22,710 --> 00:08:19,360
centers for disease control

200
00:08:25,670 --> 00:08:22,720
includes as transmission media quote

201
00:08:26,150 --> 00:08:25,680
infected bodily fluids or contaminated

202
00:08:28,550 --> 00:08:26,160
objects

203
00:08:29,909 --> 00:08:28,560
such as bedding or clothing end quote

204
00:08:32,949 --> 00:08:29,919
and quote

205
00:08:36,310 --> 00:08:32,959
rarely smallpox has been spread by

206
00:08:38,469 --> 00:08:36,320
virus carried in the air in enclosed

207
00:08:39,750 --> 00:08:38,479
settings such as buildings buses and

208
00:08:43,990 --> 00:08:39,760
trains end quote

209
00:08:46,949 --> 00:08:44,000
page 121 quote in the scientific

210
00:08:47,829 --> 00:08:46,959
model it is assumed that the etiology of

211
00:08:51,269 --> 00:08:47,839
disease

212
00:08:52,310 --> 00:08:51,279
is mainly biological end quote it is not

213
00:08:56,389 --> 00:08:52,320
assumed

214
00:08:59,350 --> 00:08:56,399
it is page 121

215
00:09:02,550 --> 00:08:59,360
quote allopathy rejects the theory that

216
00:09:05,190 --> 00:09:02,560
the mind the emotions and the soul

217
00:09:07,350 --> 00:09:05,200
are involved as causal agents in the

218
00:09:11,509 --> 00:09:07,360
development of illnesses

219
00:09:14,550 --> 00:09:11,519
to its treatment end quote the soul

220
00:09:17,829 --> 00:09:14,560
really page 122

221
00:09:18,790 --> 00:09:17,839
quote if an agent such as influenza

222
00:09:21,509 --> 00:09:18,800
virus

223
00:09:24,150 --> 00:09:21,519
is known to cause an illness it would be

224
00:09:25,110 --> 00:09:24,160
expected that all individuals exposed to

225
00:09:27,190 --> 00:09:25,120
the agent

226
00:09:28,949 --> 00:09:27,200
would get the illness but this is not

227
00:09:31,590 --> 00:09:28,959
the case end quote

228
00:09:32,389 --> 00:09:31,600
it is not the case and nor would it be

229
00:09:35,829 --> 00:09:32,399
expected

230
00:09:37,430 --> 00:09:35,839
to be so wileyman has set up a falsehood

231
00:09:40,870 --> 00:09:37,440
and then shot it down in

232
00:09:44,389 --> 00:09:40,880
an attempt to discredit germ theory

233
00:09:46,550 --> 00:09:44,399
and all of these within just a few pages

234
00:09:47,990 --> 00:09:46,560
many problems were raised by individual

235
00:09:49,670 --> 00:09:48,000
critics at the time

236
00:09:51,269 --> 00:09:49,680
including commentary in the

237
00:09:55,030 --> 00:09:51,279
peer-reviewed journal

238
00:09:55,430 --> 00:09:55,040
vaccine which questioned the quality of

239
00:10:00,310 --> 00:09:55,440
the

240
00:10:06,910 --> 00:10:00,320
examination

241
00:10:09,829 --> 00:10:06,920
vaccine volume number 34 pages 2467 to

242
00:10:11,990 --> 00:10:09,839
2468.

243
00:10:14,630 --> 00:10:12,000
martin responded that the commentary did

244
00:10:17,110 --> 00:10:14,640
not cite evidence-based sources

245
00:10:18,230 --> 00:10:17,120
rather relying on quote newspaper

246
00:10:21,110 --> 00:10:18,240
articles end quote

247
00:10:23,750 --> 00:10:21,120
and suggested that quote it is good

248
00:10:26,790 --> 00:10:23,760
scholarly practice in such instances

249
00:10:29,110 --> 00:10:26,800
to seek primary documentation including

250
00:10:29,670 --> 00:10:29,120
the views from both sides of contentious

251
00:10:33,269 --> 00:10:29,680
cases

252
00:10:34,389 --> 00:10:33,279
end quote a paper published in 2019 in

253
00:10:40,550 --> 00:10:34,399
vaccine

254
00:10:43,269 --> 00:10:40,560
volume 17 1541-1545

255
00:10:44,150 --> 00:10:43,279
does make that detailed commentary this

256
00:10:48,230 --> 00:10:44,160
paper

257
00:10:51,269 --> 00:10:48,240
quote phd thesis opposing immunization

258
00:10:54,389 --> 00:10:51,279
failure of academic rigor with real

259
00:10:54,790 --> 00:10:54,399
world consequences and quote was written

260
00:10:58,630 --> 00:10:54,800
by

261
00:11:01,590 --> 00:10:58,640
dr carrie wiley professor julie liske

262
00:11:03,110 --> 00:11:01,600
and professor margaret burgess all of

263
00:11:05,750 --> 00:11:03,120
sydney university

264
00:11:07,590 --> 00:11:05,760
and professor peter mcintyre national

265
00:11:08,630 --> 00:11:07,600
center for immunization research and

266
00:11:10,790 --> 00:11:08,640
surveillance

267
00:11:12,230 --> 00:11:10,800
it addresses many of the main themes

268
00:11:14,710 --> 00:11:12,240
wileyman raises

269
00:11:16,710 --> 00:11:14,720
criticizing the thesis on the grounds of

270
00:11:19,269 --> 00:11:16,720
uncritical analysis due to

271
00:11:21,190 --> 00:11:19,279
highly selected referencing flawed

272
00:11:25,110 --> 00:11:21,200
arguments misleading and broad

273
00:11:27,829 --> 00:11:25,120
assertions and incomplete research

274
00:11:29,310 --> 00:11:27,839
this paper is available on open access

275
00:11:32,150 --> 00:11:29,320
at

276
00:11:35,190 --> 00:11:32,160
tinyurl.com wyliman

277
00:11:38,069 --> 00:11:35,200
vaccine they conclude that

278
00:11:39,910 --> 00:11:38,079
quote this thesis is notable for its

279
00:11:41,509 --> 00:11:39,920
lack of evidence of systematic

280
00:11:44,630 --> 00:11:41,519
literature review

281
00:11:45,910 --> 00:11:44,640
despite its extensive claims there is no

282
00:11:48,630 --> 00:11:45,920
primary research

283
00:11:51,190 --> 00:11:48,640
but there is abundant evidence of strong

284
00:11:54,150 --> 00:11:51,200
bias in selecting the literature cited

285
00:11:55,350 --> 00:11:54,160
and sometimes outright misrepresentation

286
00:11:58,230 --> 00:11:55,360
of the facts

287
00:11:58,949 --> 00:11:58,240
we agree that critique of immunization

288
00:12:01,110 --> 00:11:58,959
policy

289
00:12:02,790 --> 00:12:01,120
is a valid academic exercise and goes

290
00:12:05,269 --> 00:12:02,800
beyond technical knowledge

291
00:12:06,310 --> 00:12:05,279
but equally it cannot be based on

292
00:12:09,269 --> 00:12:06,320
incomplete

293
00:12:10,389 --> 00:12:09,279
flawed and technical assertions end

294
00:12:14,470 --> 00:12:10,399
quote

295
00:12:17,030 --> 00:12:14,480
the critics call for a please explain

296
00:12:17,750 --> 00:12:17,040
review of the process of awarding the

297
00:12:19,670 --> 00:12:17,760
doctorate

298
00:12:21,350 --> 00:12:19,680
and the specific claims made in the

299
00:12:24,629 --> 00:12:21,360
thesis

300
00:12:24,949 --> 00:12:24,639
the response the immediate response was

301
00:12:28,710 --> 00:12:24,959
a

302
00:12:29,910 --> 00:12:28,720
defense of free speech the university

303
00:12:33,269 --> 00:12:29,920
issued a statement

304
00:12:35,430 --> 00:12:33,279
that quote the university of wollongong

305
00:12:36,790 --> 00:12:35,440
ensures research is undertaken according

306
00:12:39,269 --> 00:12:36,800
to strict ethical

307
00:12:40,230 --> 00:12:39,279
and quality standards and supports

308
00:12:42,310 --> 00:12:40,240
researchers

309
00:12:43,509 --> 00:12:42,320
academic freedom of thought and

310
00:12:45,350 --> 00:12:43,519
expression

311
00:12:47,350 --> 00:12:45,360
the university of wollongong does not

312
00:12:48,069 --> 00:12:47,360
restrict the subjects into which

313
00:12:50,710 --> 00:12:48,079
research

314
00:12:51,110 --> 00:12:50,720
may be undertaken just because they

315
00:12:53,030 --> 00:12:51,120
involve

316
00:12:56,150 --> 00:12:53,040
public controversy or because

317
00:12:59,430 --> 00:12:56,160
individuals or groups oppose the topic

318
00:13:01,670 --> 00:12:59,440
or the findings end quote martin

319
00:13:02,470 --> 00:13:01,680
dismissed concerns saying that they were

320
00:13:05,350 --> 00:13:02,480
quote

321
00:13:06,069 --> 00:13:05,360
not genuine concerns about quality and

322
00:13:08,310 --> 00:13:06,079
probity

323
00:13:10,389 --> 00:13:08,320
but instead part of a campaign to

324
00:13:12,990 --> 00:13:10,399
denigrate viewpoints they oppose

325
00:13:16,150 --> 00:13:13,000
end quote this is obviously a

326
00:13:18,790 --> 00:13:16,160
misrepresentation of the issues raised

327
00:13:19,190 --> 00:13:18,800
they do not concern freedom of speech

328
00:13:21,910 --> 00:13:19,200
but

329
00:13:22,870 --> 00:13:21,920
rather they criticize the thesis itself

330
00:13:26,949 --> 00:13:22,880
for clear

331
00:13:29,430 --> 00:13:26,959
scientific errors and misrepresentations

332
00:13:30,389 --> 00:13:29,440
and the review process for apparently

333
00:13:33,509 --> 00:13:30,399
ignoring

334
00:13:35,350 --> 00:13:33,519
the serious flaws in the thesis it was

335
00:13:38,710 --> 00:13:35,360
later revealed that one of the

336
00:13:41,350 --> 00:13:38,720
thesis reviewers unnamed

337
00:13:42,230 --> 00:13:41,360
as were all the reviewers expressed

338
00:13:44,710 --> 00:13:42,240
quote

339
00:13:46,069 --> 00:13:44,720
serious concerns about the lack of

340
00:13:48,790 --> 00:13:46,079
engagement with

341
00:13:49,590 --> 00:13:48,800
existing literature and the lack of an

342
00:13:52,470 --> 00:13:49,600
appropriate

343
00:13:55,110 --> 00:13:52,480
theoretical framework end quote they

344
00:13:58,710 --> 00:13:55,120
also felt that the thesis showed

345
00:14:02,310 --> 00:13:58,720
no evidence that wileyman conducted

346
00:14:04,629 --> 00:14:02,320
original research nor

347
00:14:05,350 --> 00:14:04,639
that it demonstrated that she had made

348
00:14:07,509 --> 00:14:05,360
quote

349
00:14:09,269 --> 00:14:07,519
a significant contribution to the

350
00:14:12,470 --> 00:14:09,279
knowledge of the subject

351
00:14:13,269 --> 00:14:12,480
end quote those concerns were put to one

352
00:14:15,670 --> 00:14:13,279
side

353
00:14:16,550 --> 00:14:15,680
and another reviewer was found who

354
00:14:19,990 --> 00:14:16,560
presented

355
00:14:21,350 --> 00:14:20,000
a more favorable response there was no

356
00:14:24,150 --> 00:14:21,360
review of the process

357
00:14:26,870 --> 00:14:24,160
that was used specifically to assess

358
00:14:31,269 --> 00:14:26,880
wilyman's thesis gaining a phd

359
00:14:32,949 --> 00:14:31,279
instead this was a desktop review

360
00:14:34,790 --> 00:14:32,959
of the university of wollongong's

361
00:14:36,949 --> 00:14:34,800
general processes

362
00:14:38,230 --> 00:14:36,959
the university of wollongong reviewed 18

363
00:14:40,710 --> 00:14:38,240
policy documents

364
00:14:43,110 --> 00:14:40,720
which applied to the processes that led

365
00:14:46,790 --> 00:14:43,120
to wileyman's phd thesis

366
00:14:47,350 --> 00:14:46,800
examination and award these documents

367
00:14:49,750 --> 00:14:47,360
were

368
00:14:51,350 --> 00:14:49,760
benchmarked against similar documents

369
00:14:54,310 --> 00:14:51,360
and processes used at

370
00:14:55,030 --> 00:14:54,320
four other australian universities the

371
00:14:58,230 --> 00:14:55,040
review's

372
00:15:00,230 --> 00:14:58,240
first key finding was that quote

373
00:15:02,750 --> 00:15:00,240
the university of wollongong's wide

374
00:15:05,990 --> 00:15:02,760
policy framework relevant to

375
00:15:08,470 --> 00:15:06,000
hdr higher degree research

376
00:15:09,750 --> 00:15:08,480
students is compliant with the tertiary

377
00:15:12,069 --> 00:15:09,760
education's quality

378
00:15:13,110 --> 00:15:12,079
and standard agencies higher education

379
00:15:16,949 --> 00:15:13,120
standards

380
00:15:21,590 --> 00:15:16,959
and with the a r c

381
00:15:24,310 --> 00:15:21,600
n h m r c code of responsible research

382
00:15:25,990 --> 00:15:24,320
end quote the critics of the thesis had

383
00:15:28,150 --> 00:15:26,000
not attacked the university of

384
00:15:30,550 --> 00:15:28,160
wollongong's general process

385
00:15:31,590 --> 00:15:30,560
which did not need a review the

386
00:15:34,069 --> 00:15:31,600
complaints were

387
00:15:34,790 --> 00:15:34,079
directed specifically at wileyman's

388
00:15:37,110 --> 00:15:34,800
thesis

389
00:15:37,829 --> 00:15:37,120
how it had been reviewed whether it had

390
00:15:40,949 --> 00:15:37,839
been fact

391
00:15:42,710 --> 00:15:40,959
checked and how it had been supervised

392
00:15:44,389 --> 00:15:42,720
the university of wollongong did not

393
00:15:46,230 --> 00:15:44,399
review these matters

394
00:15:47,749 --> 00:15:46,240
the university of wollongong expressed

395
00:15:50,069 --> 00:15:47,759
confidence in its

396
00:15:52,150 --> 00:15:50,079
general procedures without checking

397
00:15:55,910 --> 00:15:52,160
whether these had been applied

398
00:15:59,350 --> 00:15:55,920
diligently to wilyman's offerings

399
00:16:02,269 --> 00:15:59,360
scientific bonafides

400
00:16:04,949 --> 00:16:02,279
wileyman has taken a leading role in the

401
00:16:07,829 --> 00:16:04,959
anti-vaccination movement for some time

402
00:16:08,829 --> 00:16:07,839
both in australia and overseas including

403
00:16:11,189 --> 00:16:08,839
presentations at

404
00:16:12,470 --> 00:16:11,199
anti-vaccination rallies and support for

405
00:16:15,910 --> 00:16:12,480
the australian

406
00:16:19,110 --> 00:16:15,920
vaccination skeptics risk network

407
00:16:21,189 --> 00:16:19,120
the avn under whatever name has been a

408
00:16:23,990 --> 00:16:21,199
notorious provider of

409
00:16:25,350 --> 00:16:24,000
pseudo medical information regularly

410
00:16:26,470 --> 00:16:25,360
putting up claims that have been

411
00:16:28,310 --> 00:16:26,480
debunked

412
00:16:29,590 --> 00:16:28,320
wileyman has gone to great pains to

413
00:16:32,230 --> 00:16:29,600
stress her scientific

414
00:16:33,430 --> 00:16:32,240
credentials and authority concerning

415
00:16:36,470 --> 00:16:33,440
vaccination

416
00:16:39,350 --> 00:16:36,480
with particular regard to her thesis

417
00:16:41,509 --> 00:16:39,360
wileyman's academic background begins

418
00:16:43,269 --> 00:16:41,519
with a bachelor of science degree at the

419
00:16:45,189 --> 00:16:43,279
university of new south wales

420
00:16:47,350 --> 00:16:45,199
and a dip ed from the university of

421
00:16:49,670 --> 00:16:47,360
wollongong she then taught at high

422
00:16:51,590 --> 00:16:49,680
school in wollongong for nine years

423
00:16:53,189 --> 00:16:51,600
followed by a masters at the university

424
00:16:56,150 --> 00:16:53,199
of wollongong master of

425
00:16:58,310 --> 00:16:56,160
science population health she began her

426
00:17:00,790 --> 00:16:58,320
phd at the university of wollongong

427
00:17:01,990 --> 00:17:00,800
transferred to murdoch university in

428
00:17:04,309 --> 00:17:02,000
western australia

429
00:17:06,710 --> 00:17:04,319
where she was under the supervision of

430
00:17:08,949 --> 00:17:06,720
dr peter dingle

431
00:17:10,870 --> 00:17:08,959
dingle has had his own issues with

432
00:17:12,949 --> 00:17:10,880
alternative medicine treatments

433
00:17:14,710 --> 00:17:12,959
particularly associated with his wife's

434
00:17:16,710 --> 00:17:14,720
dying of colonic cancer

435
00:17:17,990 --> 00:17:16,720
having been treated with homeopathy

436
00:17:20,549 --> 00:17:18,000
rather than evidence-based

437
00:17:22,150 --> 00:17:20,559
medicine the coroner in that case

438
00:17:25,510 --> 00:17:22,160
suggested that dingle had

439
00:17:28,230 --> 00:17:25,520
contributed to his wife's death quote

440
00:17:28,870 --> 00:17:28,240
insofar as he supported and assisted

441
00:17:31,350 --> 00:17:28,880
with

442
00:17:31,990 --> 00:17:31,360
the homeopaths treatment and kept the

443
00:17:34,630 --> 00:17:32,000
deceased

444
00:17:36,470 --> 00:17:34,640
away from outside influence which

445
00:17:39,590 --> 00:17:36,480
contributed to his wife's

446
00:17:42,789 --> 00:17:39,600
loss of a chance of survival

447
00:17:45,270 --> 00:17:42,799
end quote you can see a full report in

448
00:17:47,029 --> 00:17:45,280
the skeptic magazine volume 31 number

449
00:17:49,830 --> 00:17:47,039
one

450
00:17:51,190 --> 00:17:49,840
wileyman says she lectured at murdoch

451
00:17:53,510 --> 00:17:51,200
for a couple of years

452
00:17:55,750 --> 00:17:53,520
quote lecturer and researcher in

453
00:17:58,230 --> 00:17:55,760
environmental and occupational health

454
00:18:00,070 --> 00:17:58,240
murdoch university end quote we have

455
00:18:02,310 --> 00:18:00,080
been trying to confirm that with murdoch

456
00:18:04,470 --> 00:18:02,320
university though the university has

457
00:18:06,070 --> 00:18:04,480
been unwilling to supply the information

458
00:18:08,230 --> 00:18:06,080
requested

459
00:18:10,150 --> 00:18:08,240
during her days studying for a phd she

460
00:18:11,110 --> 00:18:10,160
would regularly sign off emails and

461
00:18:14,390 --> 00:18:11,120
letters as

462
00:18:15,190 --> 00:18:14,400
quote julie wileyman phd researcher end

463
00:18:21,909 --> 00:18:15,200
quote

464
00:18:23,350 --> 00:18:21,919
both unofficial titles seemingly in an

465
00:18:26,549 --> 00:18:23,360
effort to add kudos

466
00:18:27,990 --> 00:18:26,559
to any arguments she might make wileyman

467
00:18:29,909 --> 00:18:28,000
then went back to the university of

468
00:18:32,950 --> 00:18:29,919
wollongong to complete her phd

469
00:18:33,870 --> 00:18:32,960
under martin while at murdoch wileyman

470
00:18:36,549 --> 00:18:33,880
presented an

471
00:18:37,830 --> 00:18:36,559
anti-vaccination poster at a conference

472
00:18:40,830 --> 00:18:37,840
which had the murdoch

473
00:18:42,789 --> 00:18:40,840
uni logo on it this greatly upset the

474
00:18:46,070 --> 00:18:42,799
university with an email

475
00:18:48,950 --> 00:18:46,080
to skeptic dr rachel dunlop saying

476
00:18:49,350 --> 00:18:48,960
quote murdoch has spent considerable

477
00:18:51,590 --> 00:18:49,360
time

478
00:18:54,310 --> 00:18:51,600
and energy in having the poster removed

479
00:18:57,029 --> 00:18:54,320
from various anti-vaccination websites

480
00:18:58,310 --> 00:18:57,039
and cannot allow the poster to be used

481
00:19:01,590 --> 00:18:58,320
in any format

482
00:19:02,070 --> 00:19:01,600
on any website end quote and of course

483
00:19:06,950 --> 00:19:02,080
dr

484
00:19:10,390 --> 00:19:06,960
original reporters right here

485
00:19:13,350 --> 00:19:10,400
on the skeptic's own podcast

486
00:19:15,270 --> 00:19:13,360
in an interview on perth radio it was

487
00:19:18,390 --> 00:19:15,280
suggested that

488
00:19:18,870 --> 00:19:18,400
quote a lot of the media reporting on

489
00:19:25,190 --> 00:19:18,880
you

490
00:19:28,870 --> 00:19:25,200
actually got a master of science degree

491
00:19:29,990 --> 00:19:28,880
end quote why leemon responded quote

492
00:19:31,990 --> 00:19:30,000
i'd like to give you a little

493
00:19:32,950 --> 00:19:32,000
perspective on my research because my

494
00:19:35,430 --> 00:19:32,960
background is

495
00:19:37,510 --> 00:19:35,440
completely scientific after i completed

496
00:19:39,510 --> 00:19:37,520
my master of science in health

497
00:19:42,150 --> 00:19:39,520
i lectured at murdoch uni for a couple

498
00:19:44,710 --> 00:19:42,160
of years my research was partly

499
00:19:45,350 --> 00:19:44,720
in the health department now it's in the

500
00:19:47,430 --> 00:19:45,360
social

501
00:19:49,669 --> 00:19:47,440
science department end quote the

502
00:19:52,070 --> 00:19:49,679
university of wollongong phd

503
00:19:53,350 --> 00:19:52,080
at the social science department is

504
00:19:56,390 --> 00:19:53,360
within the faculty of

505
00:19:59,990 --> 00:19:56,400
arts social sciences and humanities

506
00:20:03,029 --> 00:20:00,000
so technically it is an arts degree

507
00:20:05,909 --> 00:20:03,039
she put herself forward as an expert

508
00:20:07,990 --> 00:20:05,919
scientific witness in at least two legal

509
00:20:10,630 --> 00:20:08,000
cases in australia and new zealand

510
00:20:11,669 --> 00:20:10,640
that involved custody disputes between

511
00:20:12,950 --> 00:20:11,679
parents

512
00:20:15,270 --> 00:20:12,960
who hold different views on the

513
00:20:18,789 --> 00:20:15,280
necessity of vaccination

514
00:20:21,350 --> 00:20:18,799
she has used the doctor title

515
00:20:22,470 --> 00:20:21,360
that her doctorate confers as a

516
00:20:24,950 --> 00:20:22,480
qualification

517
00:20:25,830 --> 00:20:24,960
to be a witness in such cases

518
00:20:28,789 --> 00:20:25,840
nonetheless

519
00:20:30,230 --> 00:20:28,799
in those cases where there are summaries

520
00:20:33,430 --> 00:20:30,240
readily available

521
00:20:35,350 --> 00:20:33,440
her testimony has been rejected in a new

522
00:20:38,630 --> 00:20:35,360
zealand case late last year

523
00:20:41,669 --> 00:20:38,640
the judge dismissed wyliman as not

524
00:20:43,909 --> 00:20:41,679
credible she has even changed the name

525
00:20:44,549 --> 00:20:43,919
of her doctorate thesis in the signature

526
00:20:47,669 --> 00:20:44,559
block

527
00:20:49,270 --> 00:20:47,679
of her newsletters as quote

528
00:20:51,110 --> 00:20:49,280
the science and politics of the

529
00:20:52,230 --> 00:20:51,120
australian government's vaccination

530
00:20:55,669 --> 00:20:52,240
program end quote

531
00:20:57,990 --> 00:20:55,679
to repeat the actual title is quote

532
00:20:59,750 --> 00:20:58,000
a critical analysis of the australian

533
00:21:01,270 --> 00:20:59,760
government's rationale for its

534
00:21:04,549 --> 00:21:01,280
vaccination policy

535
00:21:05,830 --> 00:21:04,559
end quote no mention of science or

536
00:21:08,549 --> 00:21:05,840
politics

537
00:21:09,270 --> 00:21:08,559
which indicates she is trying to recast

538
00:21:12,230 --> 00:21:09,280
it as

539
00:21:14,950 --> 00:21:12,240
a factual science-based document on

540
00:21:18,149 --> 00:21:14,960
which the various reviews have cast

541
00:21:20,230 --> 00:21:18,159
serious doubt she ran as a candidate in

542
00:21:23,430 --> 00:21:20,240
the western australian senate

543
00:21:25,270 --> 00:21:23,440
in the 2019 federal election as a

544
00:21:28,549 --> 00:21:25,280
member of the anti-vaccination

545
00:21:31,669 --> 00:21:28,559
involuntary medication objectives

546
00:21:31,990 --> 00:21:31,679
vaccination fluoride party later changed

547
00:21:35,270 --> 00:21:32,000
to

548
00:21:38,310 --> 00:21:35,280
informed medical options party she

549
00:21:40,870 --> 00:21:38,320
is described on imp's website as

550
00:21:42,230 --> 00:21:40,880
quote phd specialist in government

551
00:21:44,950 --> 00:21:42,240
vaccination policies

552
00:21:45,510 --> 00:21:44,960
end quote the party did not win any

553
00:21:49,110 --> 00:21:45,520
seats

554
00:21:51,990 --> 00:21:49,120
at the election the university's role

555
00:21:53,270 --> 00:21:52,000
overall the university of wollongong has

556
00:21:55,830 --> 00:21:53,280
given its imprimata

557
00:21:57,430 --> 00:21:55,840
to a seriously flawed document that

558
00:22:00,149 --> 00:21:57,440
should never have passed

559
00:22:02,710 --> 00:22:00,159
even a cursory glance it has given

560
00:22:03,990 --> 00:22:02,720
wileyman a weapon to use in her attacks

561
00:22:07,110 --> 00:22:04,000
on vaccination

562
00:22:08,070 --> 00:22:07,120
claiming a scientific support for her

563
00:22:11,350 --> 00:22:08,080
claims

564
00:22:13,830 --> 00:22:11,360
which clearly does not exist as the

565
00:22:17,350 --> 00:22:13,840
authors of the 2019 vaccination paper

566
00:22:18,070 --> 00:22:17,360
say quote almost three years after the

567
00:22:21,510 --> 00:22:18,080
event

568
00:22:24,149 --> 00:22:21,520
the award of a phd by a reputable

569
00:22:24,870 --> 00:22:24,159
university has validated the thesis

570
00:22:26,870 --> 00:22:24,880
claims

571
00:22:28,310 --> 00:22:26,880
and allowed the author to add weight to

572
00:22:31,190 --> 00:22:28,320
her subsequent

573
00:22:32,549 --> 00:22:31,200
prolific writings including open letters

574
00:22:34,950 --> 00:22:32,559
to politicians

575
00:22:36,230 --> 00:22:34,960
and seminars to parents with

576
00:22:38,950 --> 00:22:36,240
consequences on a

577
00:22:40,149 --> 00:22:38,960
national and international scale

578
00:22:43,350 --> 00:22:40,159
tangible evidence

579
00:22:46,950 --> 00:22:43,360
of real world consequences come from

580
00:22:50,270 --> 00:22:46,960
two sources first two of us

581
00:22:52,789 --> 00:22:50,280
kw and jl in our research with

582
00:22:56,070 --> 00:22:52,799
non-vaccinating australian parents

583
00:22:59,029 --> 00:22:56,080
find some who state that material

584
00:23:01,350 --> 00:22:59,039
in this phd thesis and its endorsement

585
00:23:03,190 --> 00:23:01,360
by a recognized university supports

586
00:23:04,470 --> 00:23:03,200
their decision not to vaccinate their

587
00:23:06,870 --> 00:23:04,480
children

588
00:23:09,029 --> 00:23:06,880
second the author of the thesis has put

589
00:23:11,590 --> 00:23:09,039
herself forward as an expert witness in

590
00:23:13,029 --> 00:23:11,600
legal proceedings where parents are in

591
00:23:15,590 --> 00:23:13,039
dispute over the need

592
00:23:19,190 --> 00:23:15,600
for their children's immunization by

593
00:23:24,630 --> 00:23:19,200
positioning her status as a phd graduate

594
00:23:28,149 --> 00:23:24,640
to assert expert status end quote

595
00:23:31,830 --> 00:23:28,159
can the university of wollongong revoke

596
00:23:33,990 --> 00:23:31,840
wyliman's phd it can certainly

597
00:23:35,110 --> 00:23:34,000
revoke a degree and has done so in the

598
00:23:38,149 --> 00:23:35,120
past

599
00:23:40,070 --> 00:23:38,159
notably recently with the my master

600
00:23:40,950 --> 00:23:40,080
scandal of students from various

601
00:23:43,830 --> 00:23:40,960
institutions

602
00:23:45,750 --> 00:23:43,840
purchasing essays according to the

603
00:23:46,390 --> 00:23:45,760
university of wollongong's higher degree

604
00:23:49,430 --> 00:23:46,400
research

605
00:23:52,789 --> 00:23:49,440
award rules the university can

606
00:23:55,190 --> 00:23:52,799
quote withdraw an offer of admission

607
00:23:55,990 --> 00:23:55,200
where the offer is made on the basis of

608
00:23:58,230 --> 00:23:56,000
incomplete

609
00:24:00,630 --> 00:23:58,240
inaccurate fraudulent or misleading

610
00:24:04,789 --> 00:24:00,640
information supplied by the applicant

611
00:24:07,830 --> 00:24:04,799
or by certifying authority then quote

612
00:24:09,750 --> 00:24:07,840
hdr award rules admission principles

613
00:24:12,630 --> 00:24:09,760
item number 28

614
00:24:15,350 --> 00:24:12,640
the consequences of wiley min's

615
00:24:17,990 --> 00:24:15,360
promotion of her phd to establish

616
00:24:19,269 --> 00:24:18,000
credibility with a general audience are

617
00:24:22,310 --> 00:24:19,279
considerable

618
00:24:25,990 --> 00:24:22,320
if she is believed the outcome could

619
00:24:28,390 --> 00:24:26,000
arguably be more preventable diseases

620
00:24:29,029 --> 00:24:28,400
suffering and death not to mention

621
00:24:32,070 --> 00:24:29,039
stress

622
00:24:34,789 --> 00:24:32,080
on the health budget wileyman

623
00:24:35,510 --> 00:24:34,799
martin and the university of wollongong

624
00:24:37,990 --> 00:24:35,520
must take

625
00:24:39,430 --> 00:24:38,000
some responsibility for this hiding

626
00:24:43,029 --> 00:24:39,440
behind a defense of

627
00:24:45,830 --> 00:24:43,039
free speech is disingenuous and harmful

628
00:24:46,630 --> 00:24:45,840
and something should be done at the very

629
00:24:48,870 --> 00:24:46,640
least

630
00:24:49,990 --> 00:24:48,880
a complaint of academic misconduct

631
00:24:51,909 --> 00:24:50,000
should be made

632
00:24:58,830 --> 00:24:51,919
with the insistence that it be

633
00:25:02,789 --> 00:25:00,390
expert

634
00:25:03,830 --> 00:25:02,799
about the author ken mcleod is a

635
00:25:07,430 --> 00:25:03,840
campaigner against

636
00:25:13,510 --> 00:25:07,440
pseudo-medicine and the founder of stop

637
00:25:17,830 --> 00:25:15,430
and once again that comes from the very

638
00:25:19,510 --> 00:25:17,840
latest issue of the magazine the skeptic

639
00:25:21,430 --> 00:25:19,520
the journal from australian skeptics

640
00:25:25,830 --> 00:25:21,440
and you can download that article for

641
00:25:28,310 --> 00:25:25,840
yourself by visiting www.skeptics.com.eu

642
00:25:29,269 --> 00:25:28,320
it's like a free sample of the current

643
00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:29,279
issue

644
00:25:33,350 --> 00:25:31,360
don't forget you can subscribe to the

645
00:25:35,029 --> 00:25:33,360
magazine and have it delivered to your

646
00:25:38,230 --> 00:25:35,039
inbox or to your post box

647
00:25:38,789 --> 00:25:38,240
a physical copy four times a year and of

648
00:25:40,870 --> 00:25:38,799
course

649
00:25:42,070 --> 00:25:40,880
as you well know by listening to the

650
00:25:45,590 --> 00:25:42,080
skeptic zone

651
00:25:48,870 --> 00:25:45,600
all the back issues by the last four of

652
00:25:51,909 --> 00:25:48,880
the skeptic magazine going back 40

653
00:25:58,100 --> 00:25:51,919
years are available free for you to

654
00:27:18,830 --> 00:26:29,820
[Music]

655
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,050
is

656
00:27:30,789 --> 00:27:29,029
[Music]

657
00:27:33,269 --> 00:27:30,799
now on last week's show we were looking

658
00:27:36,549 --> 00:27:33,279
at water divining water dowsing in the

659
00:27:38,710 --> 00:27:36,559
pages the digitized pages of trove

660
00:27:40,230 --> 00:27:38,720
the online resource from the australian

661
00:27:41,350 --> 00:27:40,240
government the national library of

662
00:27:43,750 --> 00:27:41,360
australia

663
00:27:46,310 --> 00:27:43,760
and we discovered some correspondence

664
00:27:48,789 --> 00:27:46,320
from the year 1912.

665
00:27:49,950 --> 00:27:48,799
well this week we're going to go forward

666
00:27:53,430 --> 00:27:49,960
to the year

667
00:27:57,940 --> 00:27:53,440
1945 to an interesting series of

668
00:28:00,830 --> 00:27:57,950
letters written by skeptics and

669
00:28:03,350 --> 00:28:00,840
[Music]

670
00:28:05,909 --> 00:28:03,360
believers

671
00:28:07,590 --> 00:28:05,919
january the second in the west

672
00:28:10,549 --> 00:28:07,600
australian

673
00:28:12,470 --> 00:28:10,559
and the heading water divining a

674
00:28:15,990 --> 00:28:12,480
skeptic's impressions

675
00:28:18,310 --> 00:28:16,000
to the editor sir in regard to recent

676
00:28:20,470 --> 00:28:18,320
letters on the subject of water divining

677
00:28:21,350 --> 00:28:20,480
it is not about time that this maligned

678
00:28:24,389 --> 00:28:21,360
cult

679
00:28:25,110 --> 00:28:24,399
this hyperclan of innocence was accepted

680
00:28:27,590 --> 00:28:25,120
by us

681
00:28:29,029 --> 00:28:27,600
less immortals or else debunked

682
00:28:32,389 --> 00:28:29,039
altogether

683
00:28:33,430 --> 00:28:32,399
if their claims are true if this power

684
00:28:37,110 --> 00:28:33,440
is legitimate

685
00:28:39,909 --> 00:28:37,120
then here in our very midst are the most

686
00:28:41,510 --> 00:28:39,919
grandiose revolutionaries the world has

687
00:28:44,630 --> 00:28:41,520
ever known

688
00:28:45,590 --> 00:28:44,640
here are men who shall turn science

689
00:28:48,149 --> 00:28:45,600
upside down

690
00:28:50,070 --> 00:28:48,159
confound the universe but save our

691
00:28:53,510 --> 00:28:50,080
civilization nevertheless

692
00:28:56,310 --> 00:28:53,520
they shall give hope to the forlorn

693
00:28:58,549 --> 00:28:56,320
sucker to the dying and elemental

694
00:29:01,029 --> 00:28:58,559
vedancy to the desert

695
00:29:02,310 --> 00:29:01,039
surely they ought to be encouraged or

696
00:29:04,950 --> 00:29:02,320
painlessly

697
00:29:06,070 --> 00:29:04,960
exterminated hmm that's a little bit

698
00:29:09,350 --> 00:29:06,080
harsh

699
00:29:10,830 --> 00:29:09,360
each and every rural area is plagued by

700
00:29:13,510 --> 00:29:10,840
a galaxy of those

701
00:29:15,350 --> 00:29:13,520
cognoscenti some of whom admittedly

702
00:29:18,230 --> 00:29:15,360
display a remarkable degree of

703
00:29:20,230 --> 00:29:18,240
sincerity in their hallucinations whilst

704
00:29:21,590 --> 00:29:20,240
others cloak their ignorance in a very

705
00:29:23,190 --> 00:29:21,600
imposing manner

706
00:29:25,430 --> 00:29:23,200
lending very similitude to their

707
00:29:26,630 --> 00:29:25,440
catawallings by the most amazing

708
00:29:30,310 --> 00:29:26,640
gymnastics

709
00:29:33,190 --> 00:29:30,320
some use fork branches from green bushes

710
00:29:34,310 --> 00:29:33,200
others prefer the bushes to be dead some

711
00:29:36,870 --> 00:29:34,320
use straight sticks

712
00:29:37,590 --> 00:29:36,880
others used fossilized relics of no

713
00:29:41,990 --> 00:29:37,600
particular

714
00:29:45,669 --> 00:29:42,000
form some use wire bent in inappropriate

715
00:29:48,950 --> 00:29:45,679
specified personal and proved shapes

716
00:29:50,789 --> 00:29:48,960
ranging from the likeness of a v and

717
00:29:52,470 --> 00:29:50,799
l back and forth through the

718
00:29:55,350 --> 00:29:52,480
alphabetical complex

719
00:29:57,269 --> 00:29:55,360
and the incomprehensible hieroglyphics

720
00:30:01,029 --> 00:29:57,279
of their own imaginations

721
00:30:01,430 --> 00:30:01,039
some use crowbars some wet their hands

722
00:30:06,389 --> 00:30:01,440
some

723
00:30:09,350 --> 00:30:06,399
others wear rubber soles

724
00:30:10,630 --> 00:30:09,360
some put salt in their mouths some put

725
00:30:13,070 --> 00:30:10,640
silver

726
00:30:14,789 --> 00:30:13,080
all display the most pathological

727
00:30:17,750 --> 00:30:14,799
exhibitionism

728
00:30:19,110 --> 00:30:17,760
and pseudo modesty that it is possible

729
00:30:21,909 --> 00:30:19,120
to conceive

730
00:30:24,549 --> 00:30:21,919
none has heard apparently of auto

731
00:30:28,389 --> 00:30:24,559
suggestion or muscular fatigue

732
00:30:32,950 --> 00:30:28,399
of inertia or of newton

733
00:30:35,590 --> 00:30:32,960
when a stream is discovered

734
00:30:35,990 --> 00:30:35,600
then for some the divining tool of their

735
00:30:39,190 --> 00:30:36,000
choice

736
00:30:42,389 --> 00:30:39,200
turns irrevocably down

737
00:30:44,710 --> 00:30:42,399
for others it turns irrevocably up for

738
00:30:47,750 --> 00:30:44,720
others still the l-shaped wire

739
00:30:50,710 --> 00:30:47,760
devotees it turns irrevocably

740
00:30:51,750 --> 00:30:50,720
around and around simulating a

741
00:30:54,389 --> 00:30:51,760
psychopathic

742
00:30:56,149 --> 00:30:54,399
interpretation of incoherent

743
00:30:59,389 --> 00:30:56,159
electromotion

744
00:31:01,830 --> 00:30:59,399
and i have heard from quite an

745
00:31:04,389 --> 00:31:01,840
unimpeachable source that was some more

746
00:31:04,950 --> 00:31:04,399
romantic conjures of this ilk the whole

747
00:31:08,389 --> 00:31:04,960
earth

748
00:31:10,630 --> 00:31:08,399
trembles spots appear on the sun

749
00:31:11,909 --> 00:31:10,640
cows go off their milk little babies

750
00:31:14,710 --> 00:31:11,919
howl and

751
00:31:16,230 --> 00:31:14,720
so profound is the shock the poor

752
00:31:19,029 --> 00:31:16,240
suffering diviner himself

753
00:31:19,590 --> 00:31:19,039
overcome with grief emotionalism or

754
00:31:22,230 --> 00:31:19,600
something

755
00:31:23,830 --> 00:31:22,240
generally suffers a complete breakdown

756
00:31:26,269 --> 00:31:23,840
and is invariably

757
00:31:28,590 --> 00:31:26,279
confined to his bed for an

758
00:31:32,230 --> 00:31:28,600
indeterminable time

759
00:31:34,630 --> 00:31:32,240
incontrovertible proof surely but

760
00:31:35,830 --> 00:31:34,640
perhaps i am being a little too

761
00:31:39,669 --> 00:31:35,840
vitriolic

762
00:31:42,549 --> 00:31:39,679
perhaps i am a little too intolerant of

763
00:31:44,830 --> 00:31:42,559
quote water diviners end quote perhaps

764
00:31:48,549 --> 00:31:44,840
even a little

765
00:31:50,950 --> 00:31:48,559
skeptical now well perhaps i am

766
00:31:51,909 --> 00:31:50,960
but then i have tried a half dozen of

767
00:31:54,549 --> 00:31:51,919
them each

768
00:31:55,990 --> 00:31:54,559
varying from the others in his degree of

769
00:31:59,029 --> 00:31:56,000
proficiency

770
00:32:02,070 --> 00:31:59,039
each with bona fides and credentials

771
00:32:04,070 --> 00:32:02,080
of the most conclusive type and i have

772
00:32:06,389 --> 00:32:04,080
been mildly amused

773
00:32:07,750 --> 00:32:06,399
though not impressed by their

774
00:32:09,430 --> 00:32:07,760
contortions

775
00:32:11,830 --> 00:32:09,440
some have affirmed where others have

776
00:32:14,549 --> 00:32:11,840
negated some have condemned where

777
00:32:15,590 --> 00:32:14,559
others have eulogized what sort of

778
00:32:18,909 --> 00:32:15,600
uniformity

779
00:32:20,389 --> 00:32:18,919
is this does the stick exhibit such

780
00:32:24,870 --> 00:32:20,399
vicissitudes

781
00:32:28,310 --> 00:32:24,880
if the power is constant hmm vicissitude

782
00:32:30,310 --> 00:32:28,320
noun plural vicissitudes 1.

783
00:32:32,310 --> 00:32:30,320
a change of circumstance or fortune

784
00:32:36,310 --> 00:32:32,320
typically one that is unwelcome

785
00:32:38,630 --> 00:32:36,320
or unpleasant oh well there's one more

786
00:32:41,350 --> 00:32:38,640
word for your vocabulary

787
00:32:43,110 --> 00:32:41,360
of the six celebrated diviners two have

788
00:32:46,990 --> 00:32:43,120
coincided with regard to

789
00:32:48,710 --> 00:32:47,000
a particular spot but symptomatic of the

790
00:32:52,070 --> 00:32:48,720
irregularity

791
00:32:54,870 --> 00:32:52,080
and inexactness of the superstition

792
00:32:56,070 --> 00:32:54,880
they denied each other violently with

793
00:32:59,590 --> 00:32:56,080
regard to a

794
00:33:01,430 --> 00:32:59,600
second spot how can their claims be

795
00:33:04,389 --> 00:33:01,440
justifiable

796
00:33:05,269 --> 00:33:04,399
when in a root of less than a quarter of

797
00:33:07,509 --> 00:33:05,279
a mile

798
00:33:09,029 --> 00:33:07,519
where in 10 spots have been variously

799
00:33:12,470 --> 00:33:09,039
selected by them

800
00:33:17,350 --> 00:33:12,480
we have the above ludicrous result or

801
00:33:20,630 --> 00:33:17,360
is it that of every 100 diviners

802
00:33:24,149 --> 00:33:20,640
99er spurious their creed is

803
00:33:24,950 --> 00:33:24,159
unique in that it has no coherency no

804
00:33:29,110 --> 00:33:24,960
order

805
00:33:32,149 --> 00:33:29,120
no theory no conformity of practice

806
00:33:34,950 --> 00:33:32,159
is dowsing by science yet

807
00:33:36,149 --> 00:33:34,960
lorded to the skies by unadventurous

808
00:33:38,549 --> 00:33:36,159
minds

809
00:33:39,669 --> 00:33:38,559
it glories in its own little evanescent

810
00:33:43,110 --> 00:33:39,679
ego

811
00:33:45,509 --> 00:33:43,120
but only alas in those self same

812
00:33:46,310 --> 00:33:45,519
temples where the witch doctors are

813
00:33:49,909 --> 00:33:46,320
accredited

814
00:33:53,350 --> 00:33:49,919
paramount yours etc

815
00:33:56,149 --> 00:33:53,360
toss cargo chick wow

816
00:33:57,190 --> 00:33:56,159
them was fighting words in fact lots of

817
00:33:59,350 --> 00:33:57,200
words

818
00:34:02,549 --> 00:33:59,360
this gentleman writing writing back in

819
00:34:09,270 --> 00:34:02,559
1945 certainly knew how to turn a phrase

820
00:34:12,869 --> 00:34:11,669
of course he can't just write that

821
00:34:16,629 --> 00:34:12,879
without

822
00:34:19,589 --> 00:34:16,639
people responding and i have discovered

823
00:34:21,030 --> 00:34:19,599
several replies to his uh column his

824
00:34:23,589 --> 00:34:21,040
letter

825
00:34:25,270 --> 00:34:23,599
and let me have a look here's one from

826
00:34:27,149 --> 00:34:25,280
the same newspaper the west australian

827
00:34:29,510 --> 00:34:27,159
now this is dated the 4th of january

828
00:34:32,790 --> 00:34:29,520
1945.

829
00:34:35,510 --> 00:34:32,800
water dividing a skeptic answered

830
00:34:35,990 --> 00:34:35,520
and this is by aj wheeler from somewhere

831
00:34:37,990 --> 00:34:36,000
called

832
00:34:40,149 --> 00:34:38,000
calamundra which i'm not familiar with

833
00:34:43,510 --> 00:34:40,159
but that's what it says

834
00:34:45,349 --> 00:34:43,520
aj wheeler kalamundra writes

835
00:34:47,270 --> 00:34:45,359
in regard to a letter in the west

836
00:34:48,310 --> 00:34:47,280
australian headed a skeptic's

837
00:34:51,190 --> 00:34:48,320
impressions

838
00:34:53,109 --> 00:34:51,200
by toss kargotzik of byford it would

839
00:34:55,270 --> 00:34:53,119
appear that he has never heard of the

840
00:34:59,589 --> 00:34:55,280
british diviners society

841
00:35:01,589 --> 00:34:59,599
with a membership of 507 in 1943

842
00:35:03,030 --> 00:35:01,599
this includes some of the highest

843
00:35:06,470 --> 00:35:03,040
military officers

844
00:35:08,310 --> 00:35:06,480
as well as scientists before the war

845
00:35:11,430 --> 00:35:08,320
france and germany had dividing

846
00:35:14,790 --> 00:35:11,440
societies with high memberships

847
00:35:17,829 --> 00:35:14,800
that's undoubtedly true does he know

848
00:35:18,550 --> 00:35:17,839
that when the war started hitler formed

849
00:35:21,910 --> 00:35:18,560
a core

850
00:35:23,829 --> 00:35:21,920
of four thousand water diviners and that

851
00:35:26,550 --> 00:35:23,839
the british medical association has

852
00:35:28,710 --> 00:35:26,560
formed a branch society of radiothesia

853
00:35:29,990 --> 00:35:28,720
to study and practice divining from a

854
00:35:32,790 --> 00:35:30,000
medical angle

855
00:35:35,030 --> 00:35:32,800
does he know that miss e m penrose was

856
00:35:37,190 --> 00:35:35,040
appointed official water diviner to the

857
00:35:40,710 --> 00:35:37,200
british colombian government

858
00:35:43,750 --> 00:35:40,720
and that major c a pogson

859
00:35:46,470 --> 00:35:43,760
m.c was loaned from the british army

860
00:35:46,950 --> 00:35:46,480
and was appointed official water diviner

861
00:35:49,190 --> 00:35:46,960
to the

862
00:35:50,790 --> 00:35:49,200
bombay government for a period of four

863
00:35:52,870 --> 00:35:50,800
and a half years

864
00:35:54,710 --> 00:35:52,880
and that ninety percent of his

865
00:35:57,349 --> 00:35:54,720
successful locations

866
00:35:58,790 --> 00:35:57,359
were in tracks where orthodox methods

867
00:36:01,829 --> 00:35:58,800
had failed

868
00:36:03,829 --> 00:36:01,839
it was estimated that the sum saved

869
00:36:04,990 --> 00:36:03,839
through the instrumentality of the water

870
00:36:08,950 --> 00:36:05,000
diviner in

871
00:36:11,990 --> 00:36:08,960
excavating in unfavorable places

872
00:36:14,470 --> 00:36:12,000
was considerable far from the creed

873
00:36:15,829 --> 00:36:14,480
being disowned by science science now

874
00:36:19,589 --> 00:36:15,839
admits the

875
00:36:22,870 --> 00:36:19,599
reception of radiations from matter

876
00:36:26,470 --> 00:36:22,880
by the human agency

877
00:36:27,430 --> 00:36:26,480
will mr kargotchik deny he possesses the

878
00:36:30,310 --> 00:36:27,440
faculty

879
00:36:30,630 --> 00:36:30,320
of natural automatic human television

880
00:36:33,430 --> 00:36:30,640
with

881
00:36:36,150 --> 00:36:33,440
sound effects when he sees and hears a

882
00:36:37,990 --> 00:36:36,160
car passing along a distant road

883
00:36:39,190 --> 00:36:38,000
what's that good to do with it i'm not

884
00:36:42,069 --> 00:36:39,200
sure

885
00:36:43,190 --> 00:36:42,079
with regard to the dipping and rising of

886
00:36:46,550 --> 00:36:43,200
divining rods

887
00:36:49,589 --> 00:36:46,560
persons vary in polarity also

888
00:36:51,670 --> 00:36:49,599
and i'm afraid the next word is smudged

889
00:36:52,710 --> 00:36:51,680
so i can't quite make it out so it says

890
00:36:56,550 --> 00:36:52,720
also something

891
00:36:58,310 --> 00:36:56,560
sticks and metal rods are substances of

892
00:37:01,990 --> 00:36:58,320
opposite polarity

893
00:37:03,190 --> 00:37:02,000
even a meter needle is known to move in

894
00:37:06,230 --> 00:37:03,200
opposite directions

895
00:37:06,870 --> 00:37:06,240
with positive and negative polarity and

896
00:37:09,349 --> 00:37:06,880
finally

897
00:37:11,030 --> 00:37:09,359
it has been proved by scientists

898
00:37:15,030 --> 00:37:11,040
investigating divining

899
00:37:17,829 --> 00:37:15,040
that thought transmission human radio

900
00:37:18,710 --> 00:37:17,839
as an interference to a divine is

901
00:37:23,030 --> 00:37:18,720
working

902
00:37:24,470 --> 00:37:23,040
is a fact and this was in 1945 they're

903
00:37:28,710 --> 00:37:24,480
telegraphing

904
00:37:31,750 --> 00:37:28,720
weird and wonderful excuses for divining

905
00:37:34,790 --> 00:37:31,760
failure when tested by skeptics

906
00:37:36,870 --> 00:37:34,800
perhaps the biased mind of mr kargotchik

907
00:37:38,470 --> 00:37:36,880
prevented diviners accurately working

908
00:37:41,510 --> 00:37:38,480
wow there you go

909
00:37:43,270 --> 00:37:41,520
from 1945 i would not

910
00:37:45,030 --> 00:37:43,280
knowingly work under those conditions

911
00:37:48,310 --> 00:37:45,040
myself

912
00:37:49,589 --> 00:37:48,320
wow special pleading much and here we

913
00:37:54,630 --> 00:37:49,599
have another reply from

914
00:37:57,910 --> 00:37:54,640
h.s kilpatrick midland

915
00:37:59,270 --> 00:37:57,920
junction your correspondence tossed

916
00:38:01,190 --> 00:37:59,280
kagachik

917
00:38:04,150 --> 00:38:01,200
in his supercilious attack on water

918
00:38:06,630 --> 00:38:04,160
dividing exhibits more egotism than

919
00:38:09,430 --> 00:38:06,640
iclercismung they really loved to use

920
00:38:12,069 --> 00:38:09,440
flowery language back in 1945.

921
00:38:12,630 --> 00:38:12,079
i have seen water dividing practice in

922
00:38:15,510 --> 00:38:12,640
three

923
00:38:16,550 --> 00:38:15,520
of australian states by other people and

924
00:38:19,430 --> 00:38:16,560
myself

925
00:38:20,710 --> 00:38:19,440
over a period of 50 years so far as

926
00:38:24,069 --> 00:38:20,720
telling if water is

927
00:38:24,630 --> 00:38:24,079
sweet or salt i have never experimented

928
00:38:27,750 --> 00:38:24,640
in that

929
00:38:31,270 --> 00:38:27,760
matter nor at what depth it will be

930
00:38:33,750 --> 00:38:31,280
struck although the lay of the country

931
00:38:34,710 --> 00:38:33,760
will give helpful indications in this

932
00:38:37,829 --> 00:38:34,720
regard

933
00:38:40,069 --> 00:38:37,839
but i can vouch for the following

934
00:38:42,310 --> 00:38:40,079
if there is water under the ground the

935
00:38:45,430 --> 00:38:42,320
divining rod will find it

936
00:38:48,470 --> 00:38:45,440
you can also tell if the water is

937
00:38:51,109 --> 00:38:48,480
stationary or moving if there is an

938
00:38:53,109 --> 00:38:51,119
underground stream there is no trouble

939
00:38:55,270 --> 00:38:53,119
with the divining rod to follow it

940
00:38:57,990 --> 00:38:55,280
the divining rod will also indicate if

941
00:39:00,230 --> 00:38:58,000
the supply is ample or meager

942
00:39:02,790 --> 00:39:00,240
i am not a professional water diviner

943
00:39:04,870 --> 00:39:02,800
but for friends in many places

944
00:39:06,550 --> 00:39:04,880
i have tried the rod and their

945
00:39:08,710 --> 00:39:06,560
subsequent sinkings

946
00:39:09,670 --> 00:39:08,720
in every instance have verified the

947
00:39:13,750 --> 00:39:09,680
method

948
00:39:16,230 --> 00:39:13,760
fools laugh at their own folly

949
00:39:17,109 --> 00:39:16,240
and the next line says quote a convinced

950
00:39:20,790 --> 00:39:17,119
skeptic

951
00:39:23,109 --> 00:39:20,800
end quote some years ago an estate near

952
00:39:25,349 --> 00:39:23,119
melbourne was cut up into blocks and i

953
00:39:26,870 --> 00:39:25,359
amongst others paid our deposits and

954
00:39:29,910 --> 00:39:26,880
took possession

955
00:39:33,589 --> 00:39:29,920
one day a stranger arrived with his son

956
00:39:37,750 --> 00:39:33,599
and told me he intended to dowse

957
00:39:40,470 --> 00:39:37,760
for water directly i heard him say

958
00:39:41,109 --> 00:39:40,480
dowels it brought back to my mind the

959
00:39:44,150 --> 00:39:41,119
word

960
00:39:46,390 --> 00:39:44,160
dowser which i had known since a child

961
00:39:47,750 --> 00:39:46,400
but had not heard in australia and i

962
00:39:51,430 --> 00:39:47,760
wondered whether it was

963
00:39:53,990 --> 00:39:51,440
the origin of wowzer both words being

964
00:39:57,030 --> 00:39:54,000
associated with water

965
00:39:58,870 --> 00:39:57,040
now for those of you internationally and

966
00:40:00,710 --> 00:39:58,880
presumably this is the same meaning is

967
00:40:03,910 --> 00:40:00,720
used today a wowzer

968
00:40:05,430 --> 00:40:03,920
in australia is someone who basically is

969
00:40:08,470 --> 00:40:05,440
a teetotaler

970
00:40:11,190 --> 00:40:08,480
uh doesn't like uh what raucous behavior

971
00:40:14,470 --> 00:40:11,200
or drinking alcohol that sort of thing

972
00:40:17,510 --> 00:40:14,480
the only water available at the time was

973
00:40:20,550 --> 00:40:17,520
a tap where anyone could take his

974
00:40:22,630 --> 00:40:20,560
kerosene tin and help himself

975
00:40:24,150 --> 00:40:22,640
in many cases it was a long way to the

976
00:40:26,309 --> 00:40:24,160
tap so the man

977
00:40:27,990 --> 00:40:26,319
and his son cut a forked stick and

978
00:40:29,990 --> 00:40:28,000
started to dowse

979
00:40:31,589 --> 00:40:30,000
i was standing by laughing and

980
00:40:33,430 --> 00:40:31,599
exclaiming quote

981
00:40:34,870 --> 00:40:33,440
surely you don't believe in that old

982
00:40:38,390 --> 00:40:34,880
woman's yarn

983
00:40:39,349 --> 00:40:38,400
end quote nothing happened the stick did

984
00:40:42,390 --> 00:40:39,359
not move

985
00:40:44,069 --> 00:40:42,400
suddenly he said quote here you will

986
00:40:44,870 --> 00:40:44,079
take the stick and see if it will work

987
00:40:48,069 --> 00:40:44,880
for you

988
00:40:49,270 --> 00:40:48,079
then quote i walked about and the stick

989
00:40:52,630 --> 00:40:49,280
pointed down

990
00:40:53,670 --> 00:40:52,640
hurting my hands to hold it a well was

991
00:40:57,349 --> 00:40:53,680
dug and within

992
00:40:59,510 --> 00:40:57,359
20 feet abundant water was discovered

993
00:41:01,349 --> 00:40:59,520
since then i have found that the stick

994
00:41:04,150 --> 00:41:01,359
works for me wherever

995
00:41:05,670 --> 00:41:04,160
there is water the puzzle however

996
00:41:09,030 --> 00:41:05,680
remains

997
00:41:12,309 --> 00:41:09,040
why does it not work for everyone

998
00:41:15,349 --> 00:41:12,319
and the next entry we have here says

999
00:41:18,630 --> 00:41:15,359
quote oh grady in quote

1000
00:41:19,990 --> 00:41:18,640
carlisle i have seen a lot of water

1001
00:41:23,109 --> 00:41:20,000
diviners in my travel

1002
00:41:24,309 --> 00:41:23,119
having been a prospector borer and well

1003
00:41:27,950 --> 00:41:24,319
sinker in queensland

1004
00:41:30,710 --> 00:41:27,960
new south wales and the west since

1005
00:41:33,270 --> 00:41:30,720
1895. i find that i would

1006
00:41:34,550 --> 00:41:33,280
sooner put my faith in the man who takes

1007
00:41:37,750 --> 00:41:34,560
notice of the

1008
00:41:39,670 --> 00:41:37,760
strata than the man with the twig

1009
00:41:42,950 --> 00:41:39,680
i will give two experiences i had with

1010
00:41:44,550 --> 00:41:42,960
these supposed water diviners

1011
00:41:46,710 --> 00:41:44,560
i was camped with about 20 other

1012
00:41:47,270 --> 00:41:46,720
prospectors we were getting a little

1013
00:41:50,069 --> 00:41:47,280
gold

1014
00:41:52,470 --> 00:41:50,079
and along came a diviner he said he

1015
00:41:56,309 --> 00:41:52,480
could locate either gold or water

1016
00:42:00,150 --> 00:41:56,319
i had a small nugget about 5 or 6 dwt

1017
00:42:03,349 --> 00:42:00,160
and dwt is a penny weight

1018
00:42:04,470 --> 00:42:03,359
we put it only five or six inches in the

1019
00:42:07,270 --> 00:42:04,480
ground

1020
00:42:07,990 --> 00:42:07,280
then made a square of 15 feet and told

1021
00:42:11,430 --> 00:42:08,000
him

1022
00:42:14,470 --> 00:42:11,440
there was a piece of gold in the square

1023
00:42:17,750 --> 00:42:14,480
we had to get the dry blower to find it

1024
00:42:20,790 --> 00:42:17,760
another time i was sinking a well when

1025
00:42:22,390 --> 00:42:20,800
along came another diviner quote you

1026
00:42:25,750 --> 00:42:22,400
won't get any water here

1027
00:42:27,109 --> 00:42:25,760
and quote he said quote i have been all

1028
00:42:30,550 --> 00:42:27,119
over here with my rod

1029
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:30,560
end quote i had already put a board down

1030
00:42:34,870 --> 00:42:32,170
and got water

1031
00:42:37,270 --> 00:42:34,880
[Music]

1032
00:42:40,790 --> 00:42:37,280
now here's one published on saturday the

1033
00:42:44,790 --> 00:42:40,800
6th of january 1945 the west australian

1034
00:42:48,230 --> 00:42:44,800
and it seems to be a reply

1035
00:42:51,670 --> 00:42:48,240
to mr kagachik it says water divining

1036
00:42:54,470 --> 00:42:51,680
a challenge to the editor sir

1037
00:42:56,470 --> 00:42:54,480
if mr kargotzik intended his recent

1038
00:42:57,990 --> 00:42:56,480
letter to demonstrate his command of the

1039
00:43:00,390 --> 00:42:58,000
english language

1040
00:43:02,550 --> 00:43:00,400
it was an excellent effort if it was

1041
00:43:04,470 --> 00:43:02,560
intended as a criticism of the art of

1042
00:43:06,790 --> 00:43:04,480
divining a subject of which his

1043
00:43:10,069 --> 00:43:06,800
ignorance is colossal

1044
00:43:11,270 --> 00:43:10,079
it was a flop we have had many cargo

1045
00:43:12,950 --> 00:43:11,280
chicks

1046
00:43:14,710 --> 00:43:12,960
in the past and they are quite as

1047
00:43:18,550 --> 00:43:14,720
numerous today

1048
00:43:20,230 --> 00:43:18,560
they condemn what they do not understand

1049
00:43:22,309 --> 00:43:20,240
well there's nothing new under the sun

1050
00:43:24,950 --> 00:43:22,319
we've heard all these arguments before

1051
00:43:25,990 --> 00:43:24,960
mr gillette met one in a government

1052
00:43:29,829 --> 00:43:26,000
servant

1053
00:43:32,390 --> 00:43:29,839
who generously offered him his expenses

1054
00:43:33,430 --> 00:43:32,400
if he guaranteed that when sent to

1055
00:43:35,510 --> 00:43:33,440
narogan

1056
00:43:36,950 --> 00:43:35,520
he would find a stream within the town

1057
00:43:39,670 --> 00:43:36,960
site at a depth

1058
00:43:39,990 --> 00:43:39,680
of not more than 100 feet producing not

1059
00:43:43,190 --> 00:43:40,000
less

1060
00:43:45,190 --> 00:43:43,200
than 22 000 gallons daily he may have

1061
00:43:46,870 --> 00:43:45,200
laid down those conditions with his

1062
00:43:48,550 --> 00:43:46,880
tongue in his cheek

1063
00:43:50,870 --> 00:43:48,560
on the other hand he may have been

1064
00:43:53,750 --> 00:43:50,880
exhibiting the same ignorance as mr

1065
00:43:54,550 --> 00:43:53,760
kogochik mr gillette undertook to find

1066
00:43:58,309 --> 00:43:54,560
water

1067
00:44:01,430 --> 00:43:58,319
only if it was there not produce it

1068
00:44:04,870 --> 00:44:01,440
in mr cargo chick's letter i can find

1069
00:44:07,109 --> 00:44:04,880
nothing but the vaporings

1070
00:44:08,390 --> 00:44:07,119
of one who certainly has no knowledge of

1071
00:44:10,950 --> 00:44:08,400
his subject

1072
00:44:12,150 --> 00:44:10,960
and his vulgar abuse of the diviners

1073
00:44:15,430 --> 00:44:12,160
leaves me cold

1074
00:44:18,550 --> 00:44:15,440
he says quote perhaps end quote

1075
00:44:21,670 --> 00:44:18,560
he is to quote vitriolic intolerant

1076
00:44:25,270 --> 00:44:21,680
skeptical end quote i would add quote

1077
00:44:28,790 --> 00:44:25,280
and ignorant end quote and i do not

1078
00:44:31,589 --> 00:44:28,800
mean quote perhaps end quote

1079
00:44:32,470 --> 00:44:31,599
and now i would like to give mr kagachik

1080
00:44:36,230 --> 00:44:32,480
a chance to

1081
00:44:37,349 --> 00:44:36,240
back his opinion in a practical way i am

1082
00:44:39,990 --> 00:44:37,359
a diviner

1083
00:44:41,750 --> 00:44:40,000
in a modest way and during the past 50

1084
00:44:45,030 --> 00:44:41,760
years have seen the art

1085
00:44:45,990 --> 00:44:45,040
proved on numerous occasions recently i

1086
00:44:49,270 --> 00:44:46,000
designed

1087
00:44:51,990 --> 00:44:49,280
some sites for my son on his farm

1088
00:44:53,270 --> 00:44:52,000
and i throw out this challenge to mr

1089
00:44:56,150 --> 00:44:53,280
kargoczyk

1090
00:44:57,190 --> 00:44:56,160
i will take him to the farm i will

1091
00:45:00,470 --> 00:44:57,200
follow a stream

1092
00:45:01,270 --> 00:45:00,480
for say half a mile more if he desires

1093
00:45:04,150 --> 00:45:01,280
it

1094
00:45:04,550 --> 00:45:04,160
he may select any spot on the line that

1095
00:45:08,069 --> 00:45:04,560
he

1096
00:45:09,270 --> 00:45:08,079
likes and i will provide a man to bore

1097
00:45:12,630 --> 00:45:09,280
on it

1098
00:45:13,750 --> 00:45:12,640
about a day will do if the boar fails to

1099
00:45:17,109 --> 00:45:13,760
locate water

1100
00:45:20,390 --> 00:45:17,119
from 25 to 40 feet i will forfeit

1101
00:45:21,750 --> 00:45:20,400
50 pounds to any charity and pay all

1102
00:45:24,550 --> 00:45:21,760
expenses of the trip

1103
00:45:27,990 --> 00:45:24,560
and the labor if i locate water mr

1104
00:45:31,670 --> 00:45:28,000
kogachik will forfeit 50 pounds and pay

1105
00:45:33,670 --> 00:45:31,680
all expenses i am only an amateur

1106
00:45:35,430 --> 00:45:33,680
it will be interesting to see if mr

1107
00:45:37,430 --> 00:45:35,440
kargotrick is prepared to back his

1108
00:45:41,589 --> 00:45:37,440
opinion with hard cash

1109
00:45:44,390 --> 00:45:41,599
yours etc tg halbert london court

1110
00:45:46,630 --> 00:45:44,400
perth that's absolutely fascinating

1111
00:45:49,109 --> 00:45:46,640
imagine that a water diviner prepared to

1112
00:45:55,589 --> 00:45:49,119
put his money where his mouth is

1113
00:46:00,069 --> 00:45:57,430
now the next reference i'm finding to

1114
00:46:03,270 --> 00:46:00,079
this interesting thread here

1115
00:46:06,710 --> 00:46:03,280
is from uh

1116
00:46:07,670 --> 00:46:06,720
the army news from darwin northern

1117
00:46:10,390 --> 00:46:07,680
territory on

1118
00:46:12,309 --> 00:46:10,400
sunday the 14th of january 1945 and it's

1119
00:46:15,829 --> 00:46:12,319
very fuzzy

1120
00:46:18,950 --> 00:46:15,839
a little tricky to read it says

1121
00:46:19,829 --> 00:46:18,960
in one of the columns here for the past

1122
00:46:23,670 --> 00:46:19,839
week or so

1123
00:46:26,710 --> 00:46:23,680
there has been a controversy in

1124
00:46:29,990 --> 00:46:26,720
a west australian newspaper

1125
00:46:33,430 --> 00:46:30,000
over water divining mr thomas kalgotchik

1126
00:46:36,630 --> 00:46:33,440
who ridiculed the so-called art

1127
00:46:40,150 --> 00:46:36,640
as having no scientific basis

1128
00:46:42,470 --> 00:46:40,160
says in a further letter that he has

1129
00:46:45,910 --> 00:46:42,480
apparently stirred up a hornet's nest

1130
00:46:47,109 --> 00:46:45,920
he now states and it's just a little

1131
00:46:50,470 --> 00:46:47,119
hard to read in

1132
00:46:53,910 --> 00:46:50,480
allah in i can't it's just a bit

1133
00:46:57,510 --> 00:46:53,920
too fuzzy he now states in reply to mr t

1134
00:47:01,910 --> 00:46:57,520
g halbert well well-known perth salesman

1135
00:47:05,190 --> 00:47:01,920
land salesman quote why does

1136
00:47:08,550 --> 00:47:05,200
not mr halbert guarantee so many

1137
00:47:11,910 --> 00:47:08,560
thousands of gallons of water per day

1138
00:47:15,430 --> 00:47:11,920
divine by himself in the

1139
00:47:24,150 --> 00:47:15,440
properties he holds up for sale what a

1140
00:47:26,069 --> 00:47:24,160
fortune he is losing end quote

1141
00:47:28,790 --> 00:47:26,079
what a treasure hunt this is through the

1142
00:47:29,430 --> 00:47:28,800
years we have the next in this series

1143
00:47:32,470 --> 00:47:29,440
here we go

1144
00:47:33,910 --> 00:47:32,480
the west australian on friday the 12th

1145
00:47:36,950 --> 00:47:33,920
of january 1945

1146
00:47:39,349 --> 00:47:36,960
page seven water divining answer to

1147
00:47:42,390 --> 00:47:39,359
challenge to the editor

1148
00:47:44,710 --> 00:47:42,400
sir i feel honored that my

1149
00:47:46,549 --> 00:47:44,720
recent letter criticizing in a humble

1150
00:47:49,670 --> 00:47:46,559
way the inconsistency

1151
00:47:51,910 --> 00:47:49,680
inanity and inapprehensibility

1152
00:47:52,710 --> 00:47:51,920
of water divining has stirred a hornet's

1153
00:47:55,990 --> 00:47:52,720
nest

1154
00:47:58,309 --> 00:47:56,000
of ire amongst its credulous disciples

1155
00:48:00,710 --> 00:47:58,319
does mr halbert really believe that i

1156
00:48:02,950 --> 00:48:00,720
will accept his idiotic challenge

1157
00:48:05,670 --> 00:48:02,960
does he imagine that anything will be

1158
00:48:09,190 --> 00:48:05,680
proved or disproved by this proposed

1159
00:48:12,069 --> 00:48:09,200
piece of private research why does not

1160
00:48:14,150 --> 00:48:12,079
mr halbert guarantee so many thousands

1161
00:48:17,349 --> 00:48:14,160
of gallons of water per day

1162
00:48:19,109 --> 00:48:17,359
divine by himself in the properties he

1163
00:48:22,470 --> 00:48:19,119
holds up for sale

1164
00:48:24,630 --> 00:48:22,480
what a fortune he is losing if mr

1165
00:48:27,829 --> 00:48:24,640
halbert desires to exonerate

1166
00:48:29,030 --> 00:48:27,839
quote water diviners then quote from the

1167
00:48:31,109 --> 00:48:29,040
suspicion

1168
00:48:32,470 --> 00:48:31,119
under which they are held by the vast

1169
00:48:34,390 --> 00:48:32,480
majority of people

1170
00:48:35,510 --> 00:48:34,400
then he should carry the diviner's

1171
00:48:38,230 --> 00:48:35,520
burden before

1172
00:48:39,270 --> 00:48:38,240
the high altar of scientific vindication

1173
00:48:41,670 --> 00:48:39,280
one locality

1174
00:48:44,069 --> 00:48:41,680
as a test is useless mr halbert might

1175
00:48:46,510 --> 00:48:44,079
know that locality perfectly

1176
00:48:48,309 --> 00:48:46,520
he would have to repeat his

1177
00:48:51,430 --> 00:48:48,319
prognostications with

1178
00:48:54,150 --> 00:48:51,440
100 percent accuracy or thereabouts

1179
00:48:55,030 --> 00:48:54,160
in a district as far apart as say

1180
00:48:58,069 --> 00:48:55,040
kalgoorlie

1181
00:49:01,430 --> 00:48:58,079
albany alice springs darwin dongwara

1182
00:49:02,150 --> 00:49:01,440
and mabulba to all of which he must be

1183
00:49:05,430 --> 00:49:02,160
transported

1184
00:49:07,990 --> 00:49:05,440
blindfolded so that he would not

1185
00:49:10,069 --> 00:49:08,000
have a chance to check the geological

1186
00:49:13,190 --> 00:49:10,079
characteristics of any particular

1187
00:49:15,510 --> 00:49:13,200
area further he would have to compete

1188
00:49:18,630 --> 00:49:15,520
against a trained geologist

1189
00:49:22,150 --> 00:49:18,640
who of course would be free

1190
00:49:23,670 --> 00:49:22,160
to use as he wishes the data of any

1191
00:49:25,190 --> 00:49:23,680
geological survey

1192
00:49:27,230 --> 00:49:25,200
he would have to submit himself to a

1193
00:49:28,630 --> 00:49:27,240
panel of scientists for examination

1194
00:49:31,750 --> 00:49:28,640
cross-examination

1195
00:49:32,309 --> 00:49:31,760
and general scientific analysis i shall

1196
00:49:34,790 --> 00:49:32,319
not be

1197
00:49:35,829 --> 00:49:34,800
interested in any reply by mr halbert

1198
00:49:38,710 --> 00:49:35,839
except in so

1199
00:49:39,190 --> 00:49:38,720
far as it may exceed his initial effort

1200
00:49:42,309 --> 00:49:39,200
in

1201
00:49:45,349 --> 00:49:42,319
the tuberation and flatulency

1202
00:49:48,069 --> 00:49:45,359
yours toss gotcha

1203
00:49:50,309 --> 00:49:48,079
and immediately after that we have under

1204
00:49:53,589 --> 00:49:50,319
the heading an invitation

1205
00:49:55,430 --> 00:49:53,599
l h wilbury pinjara one can easily

1206
00:49:58,150 --> 00:49:55,440
imagine that after pending his

1207
00:49:59,910 --> 00:49:58,160
lengthy diatribe against water diviners

1208
00:50:03,190 --> 00:49:59,920
thomas cargotic read it

1209
00:50:06,790 --> 00:50:03,200
six times over and congratulated himself

1210
00:50:09,510 --> 00:50:06,800
on a very smart piece of writing

1211
00:50:10,870 --> 00:50:09,520
to me one fact seems to creep out of the

1212
00:50:14,230 --> 00:50:10,880
massive verbiage

1213
00:50:16,150 --> 00:50:14,240
in his vitriolic outburst this is that

1214
00:50:19,750 --> 00:50:16,160
mr kargachik has been

1215
00:50:22,150 --> 00:50:19,760
the victim of too many practical jokes

1216
00:50:23,829 --> 00:50:22,160
practiced by pseudo-diviners alive to

1217
00:50:27,270 --> 00:50:23,839
his warmth of feeling

1218
00:50:30,390 --> 00:50:27,280
on a much debated art

1219
00:50:30,710 --> 00:50:30,400
to say that water divining is disowned

1220
00:50:33,190 --> 00:50:30,720
by

1221
00:50:35,030 --> 00:50:33,200
science doesn't mean a thing even

1222
00:50:38,230 --> 00:50:35,040
scientists will admit they

1223
00:50:39,109 --> 00:50:38,240
still have much to learn mr kargotrick's

1224
00:50:42,870 --> 00:50:39,119
experiences

1225
00:50:46,069 --> 00:50:42,880
with diviners have been most unfortunate

1226
00:50:49,430 --> 00:50:46,079
but should he come to pinjara

1227
00:50:50,309 --> 00:50:49,440
i will introduce him to a quiet man

1228
00:50:52,549 --> 00:50:50,319
whose gifts

1229
00:50:53,750 --> 00:50:52,559
in this direction have been utilized

1230
00:50:55,910 --> 00:50:53,760
without question

1231
00:50:58,309 --> 00:50:55,920
by most successful farmers in the

1232
00:51:00,870 --> 00:50:58,319
district over many years

1233
00:51:02,470 --> 00:51:00,880
incidentally the diviner i refer to is a

1234
00:51:05,510 --> 00:51:02,480
close reader of your paper

1235
00:51:08,549 --> 00:51:05,520
and enjoys day by day discussions

1236
00:51:10,790 --> 00:51:08,559
on the news therein yet he has

1237
00:51:11,910 --> 00:51:10,800
completely ignored recent correspondence

1238
00:51:14,390 --> 00:51:11,920
on divining

1239
00:51:16,710 --> 00:51:14,400
for the simple reason that he has never

1240
00:51:22,549 --> 00:51:16,720
questioned his own powers

1241
00:51:24,790 --> 00:51:22,559
and is intolerant of skeptics

1242
00:51:26,630 --> 00:51:24,800
and finally we have one more reply which

1243
00:51:27,349 --> 00:51:26,640
was published in the west australian

1244
00:51:31,349 --> 00:51:27,359
friday the

1245
00:51:35,030 --> 00:51:31,359
19th of january 1945 water divining

1246
00:51:38,470 --> 00:51:35,040
challenger and skeptic to the editor

1247
00:51:41,030 --> 00:51:38,480
sir mr kargotchik leaves me very little

1248
00:51:42,470 --> 00:51:41,040
chance of prizing that 50 pounds from

1249
00:51:44,549 --> 00:51:42,480
his cash box

1250
00:51:45,589 --> 00:51:44,559
i am sorry he thinks my challenge

1251
00:51:47,510 --> 00:51:45,599
idiotic

1252
00:51:50,069 --> 00:51:47,520
but i sympathize with his efforts to

1253
00:51:52,390 --> 00:51:50,079
hang on to the 50 pounds

1254
00:51:53,589 --> 00:51:52,400
certainly i think something is proved by

1255
00:51:56,710 --> 00:51:53,599
what he calls my

1256
00:51:58,069 --> 00:51:56,720
private research if i can find an

1257
00:52:00,470 --> 00:51:58,079
underground stream

1258
00:52:01,349 --> 00:52:00,480
what does it matter if i pinched the

1259
00:52:03,990 --> 00:52:01,359
knowledge from

1260
00:52:04,950 --> 00:52:04,000
someone else as long as the water is

1261
00:52:08,870 --> 00:52:04,960
found

1262
00:52:11,109 --> 00:52:08,880
as mr k has evidently got cold feet i

1263
00:52:13,829 --> 00:52:11,119
shall make it easier for him

1264
00:52:15,910 --> 00:52:13,839
he can choose any locality he likes as

1265
00:52:16,630 --> 00:52:15,920
long as he pays the expenses of getting

1266
00:52:20,309 --> 00:52:16,640
there

1267
00:52:21,589 --> 00:52:20,319
and produces the 50 pounds when i locate

1268
00:52:24,390 --> 00:52:21,599
water

1269
00:52:25,030 --> 00:52:24,400
i did not claim to state at what depth

1270
00:52:27,829 --> 00:52:25,040
water

1271
00:52:28,630 --> 00:52:27,839
could be found nor the quantity i

1272
00:52:30,790 --> 00:52:28,640
guarantee

1273
00:52:33,109 --> 00:52:30,800
only a stream although i have a good

1274
00:52:34,069 --> 00:52:33,119
idea whether it is a strong or weak

1275
00:52:36,710 --> 00:52:34,079
stream

1276
00:52:37,910 --> 00:52:36,720
i leave definite depth and quantity to

1277
00:52:40,390 --> 00:52:37,920
experts

1278
00:52:41,270 --> 00:52:40,400
i pick sites for my clients when asked

1279
00:52:44,790 --> 00:52:41,280
but

1280
00:52:47,190 --> 00:52:44,800
not being a professional i do not charge

1281
00:52:48,309 --> 00:52:47,200
and at my time of life i am more

1282
00:52:51,990 --> 00:52:48,319
interested in that

1283
00:52:54,470 --> 00:52:52,000
50 pounds than in making a fortune

1284
00:52:55,829 --> 00:52:54,480
one client a manager of cattle stations

1285
00:52:58,309 --> 00:52:55,839
in the far north

1286
00:52:58,950 --> 00:52:58,319
one of the localities mr k invites me to

1287
00:53:02,549 --> 00:52:58,960
test

1288
00:53:03,589 --> 00:53:02,559
told me in that his 35 years experience

1289
00:53:06,230 --> 00:53:03,599
he had never put

1290
00:53:09,270 --> 00:53:06,240
down a well or a bore without first

1291
00:53:12,549 --> 00:53:09,280
having the site tested by divining

1292
00:53:16,230 --> 00:53:12,559
the concluding part of mr k suggestion

1293
00:53:19,589 --> 00:53:16,240
if i may borrow his description

1294
00:53:20,549 --> 00:53:19,599
is idiotic he suggests that i be taken

1295
00:53:23,030 --> 00:53:20,559
out to

1296
00:53:23,829 --> 00:53:23,040
any spot from albany and to the

1297
00:53:26,390 --> 00:53:23,839
northwest

1298
00:53:27,990 --> 00:53:26,400
blindfolded the blindfolding to prevent

1299
00:53:31,030 --> 00:53:28,000
me from seeing the geological

1300
00:53:34,630 --> 00:53:31,040
formation of the country here again

1301
00:53:37,109 --> 00:53:34,640
he displays his ignorance of the subject

1302
00:53:39,349 --> 00:53:37,119
as the formation of the surrounding

1303
00:53:42,309 --> 00:53:39,359
country enables the diviner to choose

1304
00:53:44,950 --> 00:53:42,319
the most likely spot to find water

1305
00:53:46,470 --> 00:53:44,960
as for cross-examination by geologists

1306
00:53:49,430 --> 00:53:46,480
and other scientists

1307
00:53:51,430 --> 00:53:49,440
this is all piffle i do not claim to be

1308
00:53:54,390 --> 00:53:51,440
able to answer any questions

1309
00:53:55,109 --> 00:53:54,400
put to them all i claim is that i can

1310
00:53:59,510 --> 00:53:55,119
separate

1311
00:54:03,349 --> 00:53:59,520
mr k from his 50 pounds by my ability

1312
00:54:09,990 --> 00:54:03,359
to divine water yours etc

1313
00:54:12,950 --> 00:54:10,000
tg albert

1314
00:54:15,349 --> 00:54:12,960
and there we go and i think that line

1315
00:54:17,589 --> 00:54:15,359
sort of peters out after that

1316
00:54:18,470 --> 00:54:17,599
it's difficult to find more references

1317
00:54:20,549 --> 00:54:18,480
to

1318
00:54:24,870 --> 00:54:20,559
that ongoing back and forth maybe the

1319
00:54:27,430 --> 00:54:24,880
editor had had enough so even though the

1320
00:54:28,230 --> 00:54:27,440
opinions of mr kalgotchik have been born

1321
00:54:31,349 --> 00:54:28,240
out through the

1322
00:54:33,430 --> 00:54:31,359
experience of many decades his attitude

1323
00:54:35,430 --> 00:54:33,440
certainly leaves a lot to be designed

1324
00:54:38,470 --> 00:54:35,440
and indeed i think he just like

1325
00:54:41,589 --> 00:54:38,480
using long words

1326
00:54:43,750 --> 00:54:41,599
the proposed test he put forward was uh

1327
00:54:45,990 --> 00:54:43,760
completely impractical and a bit silly

1328
00:54:48,870 --> 00:54:46,000
really

1329
00:54:50,230 --> 00:54:48,880
but what a fascinating series of letters

1330
00:54:53,309 --> 00:54:50,240
back and forth that was

1331
00:54:56,710 --> 00:54:53,319
from all those years ago

1332
00:54:59,430 --> 00:54:56,720
75 years ago they were debating the

1333
00:55:01,430 --> 00:54:59,440
merits of water dividing in the pages of

1334
00:55:06,870 --> 00:55:01,440
an australian newspaper

1335
00:55:26,870 --> 00:55:06,880
so why not visit trove.nla.gov.a you

1336
00:55:30,150 --> 00:55:28,549
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1337
00:55:33,829 --> 00:55:30,160
zone podcast now here

1338
00:55:35,829 --> 00:55:33,839
right here i have a book kindly sent to

1339
00:55:37,270 --> 00:55:35,839
me by the victorian skeptics called

1340
00:55:40,309 --> 00:55:37,280
tricky nick

1341
00:55:41,829 --> 00:55:40,319
the completely true not at all made up

1342
00:55:44,150 --> 00:55:41,839
story of the greatest

1343
00:55:45,030 --> 00:55:44,160
magician in the world now this is by

1344
00:55:48,549 --> 00:55:45,040
nicholas j

1345
00:55:50,630 --> 00:55:48,559
johnson it's a terrific book here it's a

1346
00:55:52,630 --> 00:55:50,640
really fun read

1347
00:55:53,750 --> 00:55:52,640
what does it say here i am tricky nick

1348
00:55:56,870 --> 00:55:53,760
the world's greatest

1349
00:56:00,309 --> 00:55:56,880
magician this is my absolutely

1350
00:56:03,109 --> 00:56:00,319
not made up story of magical greatness

1351
00:56:03,670 --> 00:56:03,119
magic changed my life and it could

1352
00:56:07,190 --> 00:56:03,680
change

1353
00:56:09,990 --> 00:56:07,200
yours too and i love the pit here

1354
00:56:11,430 --> 00:56:10,000
in the book it says nicholas j johnson

1355
00:56:14,630 --> 00:56:11,440
is a magician and author

1356
00:56:15,750 --> 00:56:14,640
he has spent the last 30 years lying his

1357
00:56:18,230 --> 00:56:15,760
pants off

1358
00:56:19,190 --> 00:56:18,240
he lives in melbourne with his family

1359
00:56:22,870 --> 00:56:19,200
and his pet

1360
00:56:24,150 --> 00:56:22,880
elephant morris and this book is

1361
00:56:27,349 --> 00:56:24,160
available from

1362
00:56:27,829 --> 00:56:27,359
pan mcmillan australia but uh if you

1363
00:56:31,910 --> 00:56:27,839
want to

1364
00:56:35,109 --> 00:56:31,920
look that one up just google tricky nick

1365
00:56:37,190 --> 00:56:35,119
by nicholas j johnson

1366
00:56:38,950 --> 00:56:37,200
and it reminds me it reminds me of how

1367
00:56:41,910 --> 00:56:38,960
important

1368
00:56:43,190 --> 00:56:41,920
magic conjuring i should say the

1369
00:56:44,710 --> 00:56:43,200
conjuring arts are

1370
00:56:46,789 --> 00:56:44,720
to skepticism they were one of the

1371
00:56:49,510 --> 00:56:46,799
reasons skepticism got started when

1372
00:56:52,630 --> 00:56:49,520
magicians like james the amazing randy

1373
00:56:56,150 --> 00:56:52,640
yeah the late lamented um

1374
00:56:58,710 --> 00:56:56,160
could see when people were using

1375
00:57:00,710 --> 00:56:58,720
conjuring tricks to fool people not for

1376
00:57:02,710 --> 00:57:00,720
purposes of entertainment

1377
00:57:04,470 --> 00:57:02,720
but to basically uh fool them out of

1378
00:57:06,470 --> 00:57:04,480
their money

1379
00:57:09,109 --> 00:57:06,480
in order to gain leverage your power

1380
00:57:12,870 --> 00:57:10,950
i think i can hear that bat that bats

1381
00:57:16,230 --> 00:57:12,880
woken up outside

1382
00:57:19,190 --> 00:57:16,240
did you enjoy the skeptic zone bat

1383
00:57:21,109 --> 00:57:19,200
anyway a great read so i can recommend

1384
00:57:22,789 --> 00:57:21,119
tricky nick and thank you

1385
00:57:24,309 --> 00:57:22,799
thank you to the victorian skeptics for

1386
00:57:25,270 --> 00:57:24,319
sending me a couple of copies of that

1387
00:57:28,950 --> 00:57:25,280
book

1388
00:57:29,670 --> 00:57:28,960
and that was uh because i was a guest at

1389
00:57:32,950 --> 00:57:29,680
their

1390
00:57:36,069 --> 00:57:32,960
skeptics cafe and don't forget on

1391
00:57:37,750 --> 00:57:36,079
the 21st of this month you can tune into

1392
00:57:39,510 --> 00:57:37,760
skeptics cafe from the victorian

1393
00:57:42,150 --> 00:57:39,520
skeptics and

1394
00:57:43,190 --> 00:57:42,160
seed professor associate professor paul

1395
00:57:46,789 --> 00:57:43,200
willis

1396
00:57:48,549 --> 00:57:46,799
an old friend of mine a paleontologist

1397
00:57:49,910 --> 00:57:48,559
now other people who may well have been

1398
00:57:50,710 --> 00:57:49,920
up at four or three o'clock in the

1399
00:57:52,870 --> 00:57:50,720
morning

1400
00:57:53,990 --> 00:57:52,880
are the team of people one from

1401
00:57:55,750 --> 00:57:54,000
australia one from belgium

1402
00:57:57,109 --> 00:57:55,760
one from the united states who just in

1403
00:57:59,510 --> 00:57:57,119
the last month

1404
00:58:01,510 --> 00:57:59,520
cracked one of the codes left by the

1405
00:58:04,309 --> 00:58:01,520
zodiac killer

1406
00:58:07,510 --> 00:58:04,319
who was a serial killer in the san

1407
00:58:09,750 --> 00:58:07,520
francisco bay area in the late 1960s

1408
00:58:11,589 --> 00:58:09,760
and left behind by way of letters to

1409
00:58:13,670 --> 00:58:11,599
various newspapers

1410
00:58:15,190 --> 00:58:13,680
codes encrypted messages some were

1411
00:58:18,390 --> 00:58:15,200
cracked at the time

1412
00:58:18,750 --> 00:58:18,400
others have just sat there being worked

1413
00:58:27,990 --> 00:58:18,760
on

1414
00:58:29,510 --> 00:58:28,000
it's just fascinating i'm i'm absolutely

1415
00:58:33,349 --> 00:58:29,520
enthralled having

1416
00:58:36,710 --> 00:58:33,359
followed the zodiac story for many years

1417
00:58:38,470 --> 00:58:36,720
there's a wonderful video on youtube now

1418
00:58:40,069 --> 00:58:38,480
from the people who crack the code about

1419
00:58:42,870 --> 00:58:40,079
how they crack the code and

1420
00:58:44,710 --> 00:58:42,880
it's fascinating i will certainly link

1421
00:58:47,270 --> 00:58:44,720
to that in the show notes

1422
00:58:49,270 --> 00:58:47,280
now this particular cipher is called the

1423
00:58:53,190 --> 00:58:49,280
340 cipher

1424
00:58:56,230 --> 00:58:53,200
and after all these years and

1425
00:59:01,109 --> 00:58:56,240
this has been confirmed by the fbi and

1426
00:59:03,349 --> 00:59:01,119
it reads probably accurately

1427
00:59:04,870 --> 00:59:03,359
i hope you are having lots of fun trying

1428
00:59:07,430 --> 00:59:04,880
to catch me

1429
00:59:09,349 --> 00:59:07,440
that wasn't me on the tv show which

1430
00:59:11,990 --> 00:59:09,359
brings up a point about me

1431
00:59:12,789 --> 00:59:12,000
i am not afraid of the gas chamber

1432
00:59:15,670 --> 00:59:12,799
because

1433
00:59:16,390 --> 00:59:15,680
it will send me to paradise all the

1434
00:59:18,789 --> 00:59:16,400
sooner

1435
00:59:20,069 --> 00:59:18,799
because i now have enough slaves to work

1436
00:59:22,710 --> 00:59:20,079
for me

1437
00:59:24,549 --> 00:59:22,720
where everyone else has nothing when

1438
00:59:27,750 --> 00:59:24,559
they reach paradise

1439
00:59:29,910 --> 00:59:27,760
so they are afraid of death i am not

1440
00:59:32,950 --> 00:59:29,920
afraid because i know that my

1441
00:59:36,230 --> 00:59:32,960
new life is life

1442
00:59:39,510 --> 00:59:36,240
will be an easy one in paradise

1443
00:59:42,390 --> 00:59:39,520
death oh that is just so

1444
00:59:43,589 --> 00:59:42,400
chilling an interesting point made in

1445
00:59:46,789 --> 00:59:43,599
the video

1446
00:59:48,630 --> 00:59:46,799
of the way they cracked the code is

1447
00:59:50,630 --> 00:59:48,640
zodiac made errors

1448
00:59:52,630 --> 00:59:50,640
he simply made errors in constructing

1449
00:59:54,390 --> 00:59:52,640
his code and errors in spelling and so

1450
00:59:57,589 --> 00:59:54,400
forth which compounded

1451
00:59:59,829 --> 00:59:57,599
how hard it was to crack the code

1452
01:00:01,510 --> 00:59:59,839
and also it occurs to me he was far too

1453
01:00:05,589 --> 01:00:01,520
clever

1454
01:00:08,150 --> 01:00:05,599
he really made a strange bizarre code

1455
01:00:11,990 --> 01:00:08,160
and made it very

1456
01:00:15,510 --> 01:00:12,000
complicated to to try and decrypt it

1457
01:00:17,349 --> 01:00:15,520
so after 51 years in a sort of odd way

1458
01:00:19,670 --> 01:00:17,359
it may have even defeated the purpose of

1459
01:00:21,990 --> 01:00:19,680
him sending a code to people

1460
01:00:23,510 --> 01:00:22,000
to decrypt anyway i'll link to that in

1461
01:00:24,470 --> 01:00:23,520
the show notes and i recommend you watch

1462
01:00:27,670 --> 01:00:24,480
that video it

1463
01:00:29,109 --> 01:00:27,680
is just enthralling and congratulations

1464
01:00:30,710 --> 01:00:29,119
to the team of people including

1465
01:00:31,750 --> 01:00:30,720
mathematician samuel blake from

1466
01:00:34,789 --> 01:00:31,760
melbourne

1467
01:00:36,630 --> 01:00:34,799
who cracked the code i think now there's

1468
01:00:38,789 --> 01:00:36,640
a strong possibility the rest of the

1469
01:00:41,349 --> 01:00:38,799
ciphers could be cracked

1470
01:00:42,950 --> 01:00:41,359
because that certainly introduced a new

1471
01:00:43,990 --> 01:00:42,960
way of looking at the codes i would

1472
01:00:45,510 --> 01:00:44,000
think

1473
01:00:47,510 --> 01:00:45,520
thank you to those people who continue

1474
01:00:50,470 --> 01:00:47,520
to support the skeptic's own patreon or

1475
01:00:52,150 --> 01:00:50,480
paypal at skepticzone.tv thank you to

1476
01:00:53,030 --> 01:00:52,160
the new patreons who've just come on

1477
01:00:54,870 --> 01:00:53,040
board

1478
01:00:56,069 --> 01:00:54,880
and hopefully by now the little goodies

1479
01:00:58,150 --> 01:00:56,079
have reached you

1480
01:01:00,150 --> 01:00:58,160
in the post including a little folded

1481
01:01:01,510 --> 01:01:00,160
origami pegasus from me and some other

1482
01:01:04,150 --> 01:01:01,520
bits and pieces

1483
01:01:05,109 --> 01:01:04,160
shout out to maynard maynard.com dot eu

1484
01:01:08,069 --> 01:01:05,119
if you missed

1485
01:01:11,190 --> 01:01:08,079
maynard's live christmas special you can

1486
01:01:13,589 --> 01:01:11,200
go there and see the replay

1487
01:01:15,750 --> 01:01:13,599
and you can download maynard's calendar

1488
01:01:17,750 --> 01:01:15,760
for 2021

1489
01:01:19,430 --> 01:01:17,760
in fact i'm going to be doing just that

1490
01:01:20,950 --> 01:01:19,440
i'm going to be downloading maynard's

1491
01:01:22,630 --> 01:01:20,960
2021 calendar

1492
01:01:24,789 --> 01:01:22,640
and printing out a few christmas

1493
01:01:26,630 --> 01:01:24,799
presents but for this week this is

1494
01:01:27,430 --> 01:01:26,640
richard saunders at some crazy hour of

1495
01:01:33,990 --> 01:01:27,440
the morning

1496
01:01:37,270 --> 01:01:35,829
you've been listening to the skeptic

1497
01:01:40,430 --> 01:01:37,280
zone podcast

1498
01:01:41,829 --> 01:01:40,440
please visit our website at

1499
01:01:44,870 --> 01:01:41,839
www.skepticzone.tv

1500
01:01:46,870 --> 01:01:44,880
for show notes contacts and to access

1501
01:01:50,390 --> 01:01:46,880
the back catalog of episodes

1502
01:01:52,470 --> 01:01:50,400
going back to 2008. you can follow the

1503
01:01:55,910 --> 01:01:52,480
skeptic zone podcast on twitter

1504
01:01:59,510 --> 01:01:55,920
at skepticzone visit our facebook page

1505
01:02:00,870 --> 01:01:59,520
or leave a review on itunes you can also

1506
01:02:04,069 --> 01:02:00,880
support the skeptic zone

1507
01:02:04,870 --> 01:02:04,079
via patreon or paypal the skeptic zone

1508
01:02:07,750 --> 01:02:04,880
podcast

1509
01:02:09,510 --> 01:02:07,760
is an independent production the views

1510
01:02:09,990 --> 01:02:09,520
and opinions expressed on the skeptic

1511
01:02:11,990 --> 01:02:10,000
zone

1512
01:02:13,190 --> 01:02:12,000
are not necessarily those of australian

1513
01:02:30,950 --> 01:02:13,200
skeptics or

1514
01:02:34,549 --> 01:02:32,630
hello to the afterthoughts the people

1515
01:02:36,630 --> 01:02:34,559
who listen after the music this is the

1516
01:02:40,230 --> 01:02:36,640
part of the show where i roll it

1517
01:02:42,630 --> 01:02:40,240
die what is it this week 10 i normally

1518
01:02:44,710 --> 01:02:42,640
roll a 10 sided die something i quite

1519
01:02:47,510 --> 01:02:44,720
like about that it's

1520
01:02:49,109 --> 01:02:47,520
it's a good round number i'm gonna roll

1521
01:02:51,910 --> 01:02:49,119
it three times and

1522
01:02:52,789 --> 01:02:51,920
well i always say use your psychic power

1523
01:02:55,990 --> 01:02:52,799
or your dumb luck

1524
01:02:57,430 --> 01:02:56,000
but just just guess just guess guess

1525
01:02:59,510 --> 01:02:57,440
along with me

1526
01:03:01,430 --> 01:02:59,520
in fact that's something i've never done

1527
01:03:02,069 --> 01:03:01,440
i've never guessed myself all right i'm

1528
01:03:05,349 --> 01:03:02,079
going to do that

1529
01:03:07,430 --> 01:03:05,359
where's my skeptic's own pen

1530
01:03:09,109 --> 01:03:07,440
it's not really a skeptic's own pen

1531
01:03:10,470 --> 01:03:09,119
actually it's an australian skeptics pen

1532
01:03:13,190 --> 01:03:10,480
okay i'm going to write this

1533
01:03:15,510 --> 01:03:13,200
i guess it's a d10 then said i'm going

1534
01:03:18,230 --> 01:03:15,520
to guess

1535
01:03:19,740 --> 01:03:18,240
ten all right here we go first roll i

1536
01:03:22,069 --> 01:03:19,750
think it's going to be ten

1537
01:03:25,910 --> 01:03:22,079
[Music]

1538
01:03:29,190 --> 01:03:25,920
nine oh well

1539
01:03:30,549 --> 01:03:29,200
close second roll coming up i'm gonna

1540
01:03:32,870 --> 01:03:30,559
guess five

1541
01:03:34,309 --> 01:03:32,880
because i know susan is susan gobert

1542
01:03:39,349 --> 01:03:34,319
from guerrilla skepticism

1543
01:03:46,470 --> 01:03:43,190
yeah okay well it's seven

1544
01:03:49,190 --> 01:03:46,480
hmm okay one last go here we go uh

1545
01:03:49,990 --> 01:03:49,200
three why didn't i just say five no i'm

1546
01:03:53,589 --> 01:03:50,000
going to say three

1547
01:04:01,430 --> 01:03:59,589
it's five

1548
01:04:03,190 --> 01:04:01,440
this week's winning numbers if you're

1549
01:04:06,710 --> 01:04:03,200
playing along at home